The terrible thing that's happened in america

[Peebo]

A pattern or trend can develop into something systematic, only time will tell on that.

Maybe. Your posted suggested that you believed that was happening now.

[Peebo]

Perhaps statues and the likes should be left alone for the very reason that they encourage us to think about the past and why they are there?

I tend to link the removal of these things with denial.

And I know its extreme, but I remain glad that Auschwitz was never destroyed, that you can still visit the tomb of Napoleon, and can look on the graves of a number of popes who have blessed and encouraged far worse atrocities than the confederates.

But then again, I am not offended by dead men.

In much the same way as I use such things to talk to my kids about them- a "lesson from history"

Ayr has a number of statues of men who were high up the army in Africa and so on.

I use them to talk to my kids of racism, colonialism and so on.

If they were not there, I couldn't do that.

But I'm not a snowflake

Context is key, I'd argue.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

 

Ha ha , some of these fascists are getting sacked from their jobs for attending that gathering.

 

Anonymous on the case too.  Nowhere to hide in today's cyber world. 

 

 

People are identifying the Charlottesville Nazis and getting them fired

Some far-right protesters are beginning to pay the price for attending the ?United the Right? rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. Twitter user @YesYoureRacist, who?

REVEREPRESS.COM

 

 

 

 

An angry disgruntled, armed to the teeth ex-worker who thinks his ex-colleagues got him the sack, now what possibly could go wrong there.

 

I certainly wouldn't be laughing about it mate.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Maybe. Your posted suggested that you believed that was happening now.

 

No, not intended or believed (at present) hence the use of the word apparent, which can mean 'seeming real or true, but not necessarily so.'

[Ibrahim Tall]

Perhaps statues and the likes should be left alone for the very reason that they encourage us to think about the past and why they are there?

I tend to link the removal of these things with denial.

And I know its extreme, but I remain glad that Auschwitz was never destroyed, that you can still visit the tomb of Napoleon, and can look on the graves of a number of popes who have blessed and encouraged far worse atrocities than the confederates.

But then again, I am not offended by dead men.

In much the same way as I use such things to talk to my kids about them- a "lesson from history"

Ayr has a number of statues of men who were high up the army in Africa and so on.

I use them to talk to my kids of racism, colonialism and so on.

If they were not there, I couldn't do that.

But I'm not a snowflake

I think you're missing the point a little with your last example.

A white guy in a predominantly white country that didn't 'experience' slavery looking at a statue of a guy who went abroad and took part or made wealth from colonialism or slavery is hardly likely to have the same feelings as one of the 20% of black Americans in Virginia.

It's one thing telling your kids about something that's had no impact on your or their lives it's quite another having to look at a momument glorifying a guy that thought you recent ancestors were subhuman and only deserved to live for his own profit or who fought in a civil war to keep you in that position.

[Peebo]

No, not intended or believed (at present) hence the use of the word apparent, which can mean 'seeming real or true, but not necessarily so.'

Ok, so it's about something that you don't actually believe to be the case.

[redm]

Perhaps statues and the likes should be left alone for the very reason that they encourage us to think about the past and why they are there?

I tend to link the removal of these things with denial.

And I know its extreme, but I remain glad that Auschwitz was never destroyed, that you can still visit the tomb of Napoleon, and can look on the graves of a number of popes who have blessed and encouraged far worse atrocities than the confederates.

But then again, I am not offended by dead men.

In much the same way as I use such things to talk to my kids about them- a "lesson from history"

Ayr has a number of statues of men who were high up the army in Africa and so on.

I use them to talk to my kids of racism, colonialism and so on.

If they were not there, I couldn't do that.

But I'm not a snowflake

 

'Snowflake' is the most lame insult ever though. 

 

I think books, museums, information sources of different types, recorded audio/visual, art work, that sort of thing....they remind us about what happened in the past and they make us think. There's lots of ways in which we're encouraged to remember (or not to forget) the mistakes and the lessons in history. Glorifying it with a statue is something different though. A statue has aspirational associations, pride, held up as a shining and positive example, achievement, victory, literally putting someone or something on a pedestal. I don't have any problems with statues but if I did, that's probably the sort of connection I'd make.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Ok, so it's about something that you don't actually believe to be the case.

 

Your twisting my words now.

 

You know exactly what I mean, but let me make it perfectly clear for you.

 

I am on about a trend, a pattern which may develop into the systematic removal of statues or monuments in certain states, do I believe we have reached that point yet, no I do not believe that point has been reached yet, but only time will tell if the perceived pattern turns into something more systematic into the removal or renaming of statues or monuments.

[Peebo]

Your twisting my words now.

 

You know exactly what I mean, but let me make it perfectly clear for you.

 

I am on about a trend, a pattern which may develop into the systematic removal of statues or monuments in certain states, do I believe we have reached that point yet, no I do not believe that point has been reached yet, but only time will tell if the perceived pattern turns into something more systematic into the removal or renaming of statues or monuments.

I don't think I was twisting anything.

[doctor jambo]

I think you're missing the point a little with your last example.

A white guy in a predominantly white country that didn't 'experience' slavery looking at a statue of a guy who went abroad and took part or made wealth from colonialism or slavery is hardly likely to have the same feelings as one of the 20% of black Americans in Virginia.

It's one thing telling your kids about something that's had no impact on your or their lives it's quite another having to look at a momument glorifying a guy that thought you recent ancestors were subhuman and only deserved to live for his own profit or who fought in a civil war to keep you in that position.

And the white middle class kids trying to get Rhodes taken down?

The guy died YONKS ago- before any of the protesters were born.

I don't get offended by the dead, but I aim to learn from them.

I get edgy about people removing historical artefacts that upset them.

History happened.

Use the statue to learn about it- it will keep it fresh in the minds of all who see it

[Peebo]

And the white middle class kids trying to get Rhodes taken down?

The guy died YONKS ago- before any of the protesters were born.

I don't get offended by the dead, but I aim to learn from them.

I get edgy about people removing historical artefacts that upset them.

History happened.

Use the statue to learn about it- it will keep it fresh in the minds of all who see it

I agree with much of this. But I'd suggest the point you are overlooking is that for many people in Virginia and the South, they don't need a statue to learn about "history". It's all too fresh, and perfectly understandable why they don't want such a statue in a local park.

 

As I said above, all about context.

[redm]

I can't bring myself to link to the site itself but some of you might have seen it on social media anyway. One of the main white supremacist websites has published a truly vile piece on Heather Heyer. This is the type of mindset so many of these arseholes have. These people are just utter poison. Her poor parents [emoji30]

 

 

 

 

Also, there's this:

 

[doctor jambo]

'Snowflake' is the most lame insult ever though. 

 

I think books, museums, information sources of different types, recorded audio/visual, art work, that sort of thing....they remind us about what happened in the past and they make us think. There's lots of ways in which we're encouraged to remember (or not to forget) the mistakes and the lessons in history. Glorifying it with a statue is something different though. A statue has aspirational associations, pride, held up as a shining and positive example, achievement, victory, literally putting someone or something on a pedestal. I don't have any problems with statues but if I did, that's probably the sort of connection I'd make.

Snowflake is appropriate though.

And statues are a monument to vanity and oppression

Perhaps people can see them as such?

I certainly do.

[luckyBatistuta]

Maybe, but I'm waaaaaaay less worried about a spate of statue removal than I am about the rise of white supremacy. It was quite something to see them pitch up without hoods, walking about in the open like that, so certain that their views would be socially and publicly acceptable to enough people that it made them brave and confident. Waving their Polynesian tiki torches and smashing out some Nazi salutes while dressed in preppy chinos. Some of them, anyway. The whole thing was so bizarre.

Definitely not a nice thing to see, sad times.

[luckyBatistuta]

Perhaps statues and the likes should be left alone for the very reason that they encourage us to think about the past and why they are there?

I tend to link the removal of these things with denial.

And I know its extreme, but I remain glad that Auschwitz was never destroyed, that you can still visit the tomb of Napoleon, and can look on the graves of a number of popes who have blessed and encouraged far worse atrocities than the confederates.

But then again, I am not offended by dead men.

In much the same way as I use such things to talk to my kids about them- a "lesson from history"

Ayr has a number of statues of men who were high up the army in Africa and so on.

I use them to talk to my kids of racism, colonialism and so on.

If they were not there, I couldn't do that.

But I'm not a snowflake

Good post mate

[Governor Tarkin]

The ones with ******** swastikas.

[doctor jambo]

I agree with much of this. But I'd suggest the point you are overlooking is that for many people in Virginia and the South, they don't need a statue to learn about "history". It's all too fresh, and perfectly understandable why they don't want such a statue in a local park.

 

As I said above, all about context.

Groups that I can think of that have made an attempt to destroy historical monuments/statues have ALWAYS been fascists.

ISIS are doing it to avoid uncomfortable truths staring down on them.

Can we not live with all aspects of our history- even the dark parts?

I like the odd testament to our stupidity!

Churches used to destroy statues to "false gods"

Now we look back at their cretinous stupidity.

leave the General on his podium, and take school trips there and discuss what happened, why and what it means for him to be there

[Peebo]

Groups that I can think of that have made an attempt to destroy historical monuments/statues have ALWAYS been fascists.

ISIS are doing it to avoid uncomfortable truths staring down on them.

Can we not live with all aspects of our history- even the dark parts?

I like the odd testament to our stupidity!

Churches used to destroy statues to "false gods"

Now we look back at their cretinous stupidity.

leave the General on his podium, and take school trips there and discuss what happened, why and what it means for him to be there

Again, I agree to an extent. But it's probably fair to say that school trips aren't really required to discuss that era and it's legacy...which is very much alive, in certain aspects. Such statues and symbology often have modern and painful relevance, in that part of the world.

 

As an aside, not sure this statue is being destroyed, as opposed to moved.

[doctor jambo]

Again, I agree to an extent. But it's probably fair to say that school trips aren't really required to discuss that era and it's legacy...which is very much alive, in certain aspects. Such statues and symbology often have modern and painful relevance, in that part of the world.

 

As an aside, not sure this statue is being destroyed, as opposed to moved.

Perhaps then what they should be doing is leaving the General there and erecting a statue of Martin Luther King next to him?

or Mandela?

Though it would be more fun to do one of Malcolm X and have him and Lee duelling with light sabres

[Justin Z]

And the white middle class kids trying to get Rhodes taken down?

The guy died YONKS ago- before any of the protesters were born.

I don't get offended by the dead, but I aim to learn from them.

I get edgy about people removing historical artefacts that upset them.

History happened.

Use the statue to learn about it- it will keep it fresh in the minds of all who see it

 

Agreed in the case of actual historical artefacts.

 

In the case of statues that were hastily commissioned in the 1950s and 60s in direct response to the Black Civil Rights Movement?  That's just the South being the South and hanging on to racism and old ways that we ought to have been shot of over here decades ago.

 

If any of these monuments were historical, period pieces?  Totally different.  But they're not.

[Peebo]

Agreed in the case of actual historical artefacts.

 

In the case of statues that were hastily commissioned in the 1950s and 60s in direct response to the Black Civil Rights Movement? That's just the South being the South and hanging on to racism and old ways that we ought to have been shot of over here decades ago.

 

If any of these monuments were historical, period pieces? Totally different. But they're not.

Indeed. This is not the equivalent of the Taliban blowing up the Bamiyan Buddhas.

[doctor jambo]

Agreed in the case of actual historical artefacts.

 

In the case of statues that were hastily commissioned in the 1950s and 60s in direct response to the Black Civil Rights Movement?  That's just the South being the South and hanging on to racism and old ways that we ought to have been shot of over here decades ago.

 

If any of these monuments were historical, period pieces?  Totally different.  But they're not.

Depends when you think history stopped?

Whether you like it or not the guy was a major historical figure, and part of the history of the USA and the south in particular.

People are attached to their history, and efforts to destroy heritage rarely go down well.

I like the fact that in Mongolia they revere the great Khan and have build modern monuments to him- despite the fact he slaughtered 40 million Chinese!

You can respect someone without agreeing with them.

Ghandi used to write to Hitler..........

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I can't bring myself to link to the site itself but some of you might have seen it on social media anyway. One of the main white supremacist websites has published a truly vile piece on Heather Heyer. This is the type of mindset so many of these arseholes have. These people are just utter poison. Her poor parents [emoji30]

 

 

 

 

Also, there's this:

 

That is some appalling trolling right there, by someone who needs exterminating from the gene pool. Makes you realise the extent of the scum who are involved in this.

 

I draw a simple conclusion - if neds like that are backing the statue, the statue should go.

[deesidejambo]

Definitely not a nice thing to see, sad times.

Indeed,  but what need always to be asked is   -   why?        I argue that the rise of "white supremacy" or UKIP, or the French far right etc is not despite the Liberal left, but because of them.       

 

I work with loads of Americans up here, almost all of whom say their vote for Trump was a protest or "the lesser of two evils".    The Liberal left should look at itself to find out why they are declining in popularity.

 

Until Trump ****s up of course!

[Peebo]

Indeed, but what need always to be asked is - why? I argue that the rise of "white supremacy" or UKIP, or the French far right etc is not despite the Liberal left, but because of them.

 

I work with loads of Americans up here, almost all of whom say their vote for Trump was a protest or "the lesser of two evils". The Liberal left should look at itself to find out why they are declining in popularity.

 

Until Trump ****s up of course!

White supremacy has been around for a lot, lot longer in the US than Donald Trump.

[Justin Z]

Depends when you think history stopped?

Whether you like it or not the guy was a major historical figure, and part of the history of the USA and the south in particular.

People are attached to their history, and efforts to destroy heritage rarely go down well.

I like the fact that in Mongolia they revere the great Khan and have build modern monuments to him- despite the fact he slaughtered 40 million Chinese!

You can respect someone without agreeing with them.

Ghandi used to write to Hitler..........

 

I think your question is a nonsense one in this context, the context being, racist arseholes had these monuments built while Martin Luther King Jr. was going around having the nerve to seek equal rights and treatment for non-whites.  Said racist arseholes did this in order to reinforce the existing power structures and keep Black people frightened and marginalised.  Said racist arseholes did not do this in order to "honour their heritage".

 

There was zero good faith in the creation of these monuments in the first place. Ergo, they can gtf.  It's also just part of a larger pattern which you would be aware of, had you lived in the U.S. for most of your life, of the south denying, deflecting and otherwise fictionalising everything about slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow, Civil Rights, etc.  The fact that people still will tell you to this day, with a straight face, that the driver behind the Civil War was "States' Rights", a claim approximately equal to that of Holocaust Deniers' that Jews and others weren't being targeted by the Nazis, tells you all you need to know.  It is the survival of these attitudes that has allowed the alt right movement to fester for decades, and now unleash its purulence into the American consciousness.

 

I feel no compunction whatsoever with a national disavowal of such overtly racist, revisionist, crank views, and therefore support the destruction of these monuments as part of the process.

[Justin Z]

Indeed,  but what need always to be asked is   -   why?        I argue that the rise of "white supremacy" or UKIP, or the French far right etc is not despite the Liberal left, but because of them.       

 

I work with loads of Americans up here, almost all of whom say their vote for Trump was a protest or "the lesser of two evils".    The Liberal left should look at itself to find out why they are declining in popularity.

 

Until Trump ****s up of course!

 

Americans like that are complete idiots, and a large source of my embarrassment at my own country.  There's no doubt the "centre-right", which is what the Democratic Party actually is if you look at their actual political stances, did a terrible job of messaging, should never have shoved Hillary through the primary process, etc.  It doesn't make a vote for Trump any less inexcusable, nor those who did it, any less culpable for choosing a racist, misogynist ideologue, and aligning themselves with neo-Nazis.

[redm]

Indeed,  but what need always to be asked is   -   why?        I argue that the rise of "white supremacy" or UKIP, or the French far right etc is not despite the Liberal left, but because of them.       

 

I work with loads of Americans up here, almost all of whom say their vote for Trump was a protest or "the lesser of two evils".    The Liberal left should look at itself to find out why they are declining in popularity.

 

Until Trump ****s up of course!

 

I would be tempted to ask them what exactly they mean when they say that because it's beginning to sound like one of those things that people just say without really meaning anything at all. Even if they do mean it, I find it hard to accept "you/these other folk/the bad boy made me do it" as an excuse for voting Trump or supporting white supremacists or any of the other horrible things they're trying to pin on this mysterious force known as "the left". Absolving themselves of any responsibility for the cruddy choices they make is unsurprisingly pathetic.

[doctor jambo]

I think your question is a nonsense one in this context, the context being, racist arseholes had these monuments built while Martin Luther King Jr. was going around having the nerve to seek equal rights and treatment for non-whites.  Said racist arseholes did this in order to reinforce the existing power structures and keep Black people frightened and marginalised.  Said racist arseholes did not do this in order to "honour their heritage".

 

There was zero good faith in the creation of these monuments in the first place. Ergo, they can gtf.  It's also just part of a larger pattern which you would be aware of, had you lived in the U.S. for most of your life, of the south denying, deflecting and otherwise fictionalising everything about slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow, Civil Rights, etc.  The fact that people still will tell you to this day, with a straight face, that the driver behind the Civil War was "States' Rights", a claim approximately equal to that of Holocaust Deniers' that Jews and others weren't being targeted by the Nazis, tells you all you need to know.  It is the survival of these attitudes that has allowed the alt right movement to fester for decades, and now unleash its purulence into the American consciousness.

 

I feel no compunction whatsoever with a national disavowal of such overtly racist, revisionist, crank views, and therefore support the destruction of these monuments as part of the process.

Destroying the statues indicates you are still afraid

 

take down the statue and you reinforce the grudge.

Huge numbers of people are racist- always have been always will be- of all colours and creeds.

This is petrol on the flames, frankly

[deesidejambo]

White supremacy has been around for a lot, lot longer in the US than Donald Trump.

Agreed but the point is that it is now on the rise along with other far right groups across the world.

 

Why do you think that is? Are people all suddenly becoming racists for the hell of it or is there something causing it?

 

What do you think?

[ZeroHour]

Perhaps statues and the likes should be left alone for the very reason that they encourage us to think about the past and why they are there?

I tend to link the removal of these things with denial.

And I know its extreme, but I remain glad that Auschwitz was never destroyed, that you can still visit the tomb of Napoleon, and can look on the graves of a number of popes who have blessed and encouraged far worse atrocities than the confederates.

But then again, I am not offended by dead men.

In much the same way as I use such things to talk to my kids about them- a "lesson from history"

Ayr has a number of statues of men who were high up the army in Africa and so on.

I use them to talk to my kids of racism, colonialism and so on.

If they were not there, I couldn't do that.

But I'm not a snowflake

Excellent post. Systemically removing these statues and the like amounts to censorship of history & 'get it up you' to those of a different pov.

[Justin Z]

Shocking the number of seemingly sensible people willing to pander to white supremacists in this thread.  Feels strangely like dinner table racism, something I never imagined really existed outside the U.S.

[maroonlegions]

Good to see another fascist web site  being targeted and hopefully being trolled to feck and shut down. 

 

The fascist site called the "Daily Stormer"..   has been taken over by Anonymous and will be shut down.

 

Name and shame these vile fecks i say, troll the feck out of such web sites or anyone peddling such vile fascist views. 

 

 

END OF HATE: ANONYMOUS NOW IN CONTROL OF DAILY STORMER

#TANGODOWN THIS SITE IS NOW UNDER THE CONTROL OF ANONYMOUS WE HAVE TAKEN THIS SITE IN THE NAME O...

DAILYSTORMER.COM

 

 

 

 

THIS SITE IS NOW UNDER THE CONTROL OF ANONYMOUS

WE HAVE TAKEN THIS SITE IN THE NAME OF HEATHER HEYER A VICTIM OF WHITE SUPREMACIST TERRORISM

 

FOR TOO LONG THE DAILY STORMER AND ANDREW ANGLIN HAVE SPEWED THEIR PUTRID HATE ON THIS SITE

THAT WILL NOT BE HAPPENING ANYMORE

 

WE HAVE ALL OF THE DETAILS ON THE SERVERS AND WILL BE RELEASING THE DATA WHEN WE FEEL THE TIME IS RIGHT

 

WE HAVE ALSO GATHERED LOCATIONAL DATA ON ANGLIN HIMSELF AND ARE SENDING OUR ALLIES IN LAGOS TO PAY HIM A VISIT IN PERSON

 

THIS EVIL CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND

 

IT TOOK A UNITED FORCE OF ELITE HACKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD TO BREACH THE SYSTEMS AND THE FIREWALL

 

WE HAVE HAD THE DAILY STORMER IN OUR SITES FOR MONTHS NOW

 

THE EVENTS OF CHARLOTTESVILLE ALERTED US TO THE NEED FOR IMMEDIATE ACTION

 

WE WANT YOU NAZIS TO KNOW: YOUR TIME IS SHORT

 

WE WILL ALLOW THE SITE TO REMAIN ONLINE FOR 24 HOURS SO THE WORLD CAN WITNESS THE HATE

 

THEN WE WILL SHUT IT DOWN

PERMANENTLY

 

HACKERS OF THE WORLD HAVE UNITED IN DEFENSE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE

YOU SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED US.

 

[maroonlegions]

Shocking the number of seemingly sensible people willing to pander to white supremacists in this thread.  Feels strangely like dinner table racism, something I never imagined really existed outside the U.S.

 

Trolls , infestation.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Good to see another fascist web site  being targeted and hopefully being trolled to feck and shut down. 

 

The fascist site called the "Daily Stormer"..   has been taken over by Anonymous and will be shut down.

 

Name and shame these vile fecks i say, troll the feck out of such web sites or anyone peddling such vile fascist views. 

 

 

END OF HATE: ANONYMOUS NOW IN CONTROL OF DAILY STORMER

#TANGODOWN THIS SITE IS NOW UNDER THE CONTROL OF ANONYMOUS WE HAVE TAKEN THIS SITE IN THE NAME O...

DAILYSTORMER.COM

 

 

 

 

THIS SITE IS NOW UNDER THE CONTROL OF ANONYMOUS

WE HAVE TAKEN THIS SITE IN THE NAME OF HEATHER HEYER A VICTIM OF WHITE SUPREMACIST TERRORISM

 

FOR TOO LONG THE DAILY STORMER AND ANDREW ANGLIN HAVE SPEWED THEIR PUTRID HATE ON THIS SITE

THAT WILL NOT BE HAPPENING ANYMORE

 

WE HAVE ALL OF THE DETAILS ON THE SERVERS AND WILL BE RELEASING THE DATA WHEN WE FEEL THE TIME IS RIGHT

 

WE HAVE ALSO GATHERED LOCATIONAL DATA ON ANGLIN HIMSELF AND ARE SENDING OUR ALLIES IN LAGOS TO PAY HIM A VISIT IN PERSON

 

THIS EVIL CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND

 

IT TOOK A UNITED FORCE OF ELITE HACKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD TO BREACH THE SYSTEMS AND THE FIREWALL

 

WE HAVE HAD THE DAILY STORMER IN OUR SITES FOR MONTHS NOW

 

THE EVENTS OF CHARLOTTESVILLE ALERTED US TO THE NEED FOR IMMEDIATE ACTION

 

WE WANT YOU NAZIS TO KNOW: YOUR TIME IS SHORT

 

WE WILL ALLOW THE SITE TO REMAIN ONLINE FOR 24 HOURS SO THE WORLD CAN WITNESS THE HATE

 

THEN WE WILL SHUT IT DOWN

PERMANENTLY

 

HACKERS OF THE WORLD HAVE UNITED IN DEFENSE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE

YOU SHOULD HAVE EXPECTED US.

 

 

Nicely done.

 

But "in defence of the Jewish people"? What does that mean?

[doctor jambo]

Shocking the number of seemingly sensible people willing to pander to white supremacists in this thread.  Feels strangely like dinner table racism, something I never imagined really existed outside the U.S.

Perhaps you should worry about censorship and liberal fascism?

 

Where neo- liberals are eroding the rights of others to speak, and taking away their voices.

No-one is pandering to white supremacists on this thread, but nor am I happy that many fail to see that it has been the gradual marginalisation of certain groups by the "liberal elite" that has brought us to this sad place,

and you don't deal with it by acts of aggression like taking down statues- it is an attack on them whether you like it or not

[redm]

Shocking the number of seemingly sensible people willing to pander to white supremacists in this thread.  Feels strangely like dinner table racism, something I never imagined really existed outside the U.S.

 

It's depressing. You actually hear people come out with things like "well, this is what happens when you try and force people to be too politically correct" and similar gubbins. It's madness. Extreme prejudice and intolerance are becoming more normalised by the day and the top boys (aided by friendly media) are managing to also convince them that it's all somebody else's problem. That they're not actually to blame for their own votes or their own behaviour or their own treatment of others. That it's not completely unreasonable or downright poisonous. It's creeping in, like a particularly nasty stinking fungus or something.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Perhaps you should worry about censorship and liberal fascism?

 

Where neo- liberals are eroding the rights of others to speak, and taking away their voices.

No-one is pandering to white supremacists on this thread, but nor am I happy that many fail to see that it has been the gradual marginalisation of certain groups by the "liberal elite" that has brought us to this sad place,

and you don't deal with it by acts of aggression like taking down statues- it is an attack on them whether you like it or not

 

Can you define "certain groups" and "liberal elite"?

[Justin Z]

Perhaps you should worry about censorship and liberal fascism?

 

Where neo- liberals are eroding the rights of others to speak, and taking away their voices.

No-one is pandering to white supremacists on this thread, but nor am I happy that many fail to see that it has been the gradual marginalisation of certain groups by the "liberal elite" that has brought us to this sad place,

and you don't deal with it by acts of aggression like taking down statues- it is an attack on them whether you like it or not

 

It's already been pointed out to you that these statues were erected for overtly white supremacist reasons.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion; not everyone is entitled to have that opinion aired in the public square, especially when that opinion is anathema to a society in which one group is not considered superior to another on the basis of something like skin colour.  An analogy would be if some section of Germany, following World War II, had become insular and continued to persecute Jews for decades, if not outright slaughter them, and then when Jews finally fought for equal rights there, they decided to start putting up statues of Goebbels and Hitler and Goering in response.

 

By this twisted logic, you would support those statues remaining even though they were not erected during the historical era in question, nor were they erected for any reason other than attempting to keep the ideals of Nazism and inequality on the basis of race alive.

 

There is nothing wrong with marginalising toxic views.  To claim otherwise is to pander to them.  In the U.S. the government cannot directly do it because of the First Amendment, which in my view is as it should be.  People who hold views like these should absolutely suffer private consequences however.  And on the other side of the First Amendment coin, public land and public spaces should not be used to push overtly racist agendas the basis for which is inequality.  Indeed, it is against the Constitution.

 

Finally, I very much agree that taking down these statues is an attack on utter bullshit.  I like it fine, thank you, because I don't pander to white supremacists or their views.

[Justin Z]

It's depressing. You actually hear people come out with things like "well, this is what happens when you try and force people to be too politically correct" and similar gubbins. It's madness. Extreme prejudice and intolerance are becoming more normalised by the day and the top boys (aided by friendly media) are managing to also convince them that it's all somebody else's problem. That they're not actually to blame for their own votes or their own behaviour or their own treatment of others. That it's not completely unreasonable or downright poisonous. It's creeping in, like a particularly nasty stinking fungus or something.

 

The "political correctness" thing was big in the early 90s.  For a while, I thought it had died out completely--a thankfully failed attempt at excusing horrible behaviour, racism and all manner of things by crying censorship.  My goodness has it come back with a vengeance in the past five years.

 

Edited to add: The false equivalency thing is also really shocking.  "You deserve to die because you are non-white, whites are superior" is NOT EQUIVALENT to "I do not have the same rights and privileges as many in my society because of some fundamental aspect of my person (race, sexual orientation, sex, etc.)".  And yet for the apologists for these white supremacists, they are both equivalent.

[Peebo]

Agreed but the point is that it is now on the rise along with other far right groups across the world.

 

Why do you think that is? Are people all suddenly becoming racists for the hell of it or is there something causing it?

 

What do you think?

I'm not sure it (white supremacist views in the US) is on the rise now. Maybe, I'm just not personally sure.

 

I know it is rife, though, and has been for years. I lived in the South for a number of years, and am pretty familiar with the symbology used to communicate views and intimidate people.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

The "political correctness" thing was big in the early 90s.  For a while, I thought it had died out completely--a thankfully failed attempt at excusing horrible behaviour, racism and all manner of things by crying censorship.  My goodness has it come back with a vengeance in the past five years.

 

Yup. The venom from twitter and facebook comments spilling over into real life. This is just the beginning. Terrifying.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Yup. The venom from twitter and facebook comments spilling over into real life. This is just the beginning. Terrifying.

 

 

The standard of debate everywhere has bombed to the lowest level. That applies to the right and the left. With regards to this statue, there's a grown-up debate to be had about what it symbolises and whether it should stay but we all know that neither side will listen to the other or tolerate the other's views.

[doctor jambo]

It's already been pointed out to you that these statues were erected for overtly white supremacist reasons.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion; not everyone is entitled to have that opinion aired in the public square, especially when that opinion is anathema to a society in which one group is not considered superior to another on the basis of something like skin colour.  An analogy would be if some section of Germany, following World War II, had become insular and continued to persecute Jews for decades, if not outright slaughter them, and then when Jews finally fought for equal rights there, they decided to start putting up statues of Goebbels and Hitler and Goering in response.

 

By this twisted logic, you would support those statues remaining even though they were not erected during the historical era in question, nor were they erected for any reason other than attempting to keep the ideals of Nazism and inequality on the basis of race alive.

 

There is nothing wrong with marginalising toxic views.  To claim otherwise is to pander to them.  In the U.S. the government cannot directly do it because of the First Amendment, which in my view is as it should be.  People who hold views like these should absolutely suffer private consequences however.  And on the other side of the First Amendment coin, public land and public spaces should not be used to push overtly racist agendas the basis for which is inequality.  Indeed, it is against the Constitution.

 

Finally, I very much agree that taking down these statues is an attack on utter bullshit.  I like it fine, thank you, because I don't pander to white supremacists or their views.

They ( and it is they, not I) see the liberal agenda as harmful and toxic. The erosion of their concept of family, their religious views, their rights and morals and freedoms.

I accept that they are backward, outdated and a bit odd- but whether you like it or not there are feckin millions of them- and they want listened to.

They elected a president- Trump- and since then THEIR ELECTED rep has been attacked, belittled and pursued relentlessly by the same liberal minority that they PERCEIVE is destroying their culture.

 

And it is now pulling down their statues.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

The standard of debate everywhere has bombed to the lowest level. That applies to the right and the left. With regards to this statue, there's a grown-up debate to be had about what it symbolises and whether it should stay but we all know that neither side will listen to the other or tolerate the other's views.

 

Nobody listens to anything anymore and we're all trying to get the maximum amount of our opinions in to the minimum amount of exposure because we all have the attention span of a seagull. We take the most extreme views and apply them to one half of the entire population. It's mental. It happens everywhere. It's even evident on this forum every single day. Any opinion from any side on Levein or Neilson, no matter how measured or rational, is immediately portrayed as the most extreme view of the 'other side'. Crazy stuff and you wonder how this ends.

[Justin Z]

Agreed but the point is that it is now on the rise along with other far right groups across the world.

 

Why do you think that is? Are people all suddenly becoming racists for the hell of it or is there something causing it?

 

What do you think?

 

That's easy.  Dog-whistling has been going on for years.  Now it's in overdrive.

 

Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists applaud Donald Trump's response to deadly violence in Virginia

 

The founder of Daily Stormer, an American neo-Nazi and white supremacist site which considers itself to be part of the alt-right movement, hailed the fact President Trump ?outright refused to disavow? the gathering of white supremacists.

 

?People saying he cucked are shills and kikes,? said its editor Andrew Anglin. ?He did the opposite of cuck. He refused to even mention anything to do with us. When reporters were screaming at him about White Nationalism he just walked out of the room.?

 

Another Daily Stormer commenter said: ?Trump comments were good. He didn't attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us. He said that we need to study why people are so angry, and implied that there was hate... on both sides! So he implied the Antifa are haters.?

. . .

?There was virtually no counter-signaling of us at all,? the Trump supporter continued. ?He said he loves us all. Also refused to answer a question about white nationalists supporting him. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.?

 

Nazis and White Nationalists are crawling out of their cesspits because they have been emboldened to.  In their own words.

[redm]

The "political correctness" thing was big in the early 90s.  For a while, I thought it had died out completely--a thankfully failed attempt at excusing horrible behaviour, racism and all manner of things by crying censorship.  My goodness has it come back with a vengeance in the past five years.

 

Edited to add: The false equivalency thing is also really shocking.  "You deserve to die because you are non-white, whites are superior" is NOT EQUIVALENT to "I do not have the same rights and privileges as many in my society because of some fundamental aspect of my person (race, sexual orientation, sex, etc.)".  And yet for the apologists for these white supremacists, they are both equivalent.

 

Drives me crazy too. "You are inferior to me" versus "I want equality". On what planet is that balanced?

 

I think it probably does stem from the push for equality, and the pressure that comes from all different groups of people to pursue equality, but not because it's oppressive or stifling. When people are used to being in a position of privilege and power but that's not how it's labelled and they don't recognise their position as such, any push from others for a more equal footing probably is going to feel like discrimination of some sort, like someone trying to take something from you. I suppose, in some ways, they are trying to take something...but it's not something the group in power should have anyway.

[Justin Z]

They ( and it is they, not I) see the liberal agenda as harmful and toxic. The erosion of their concept of family, their religious views, their rights and morals and freedoms.

I accept that they are backward, outdated and a bit odd- but whether you like it or not there are feckin millions of them- and they want listened to.

They elected a president- Trump- and since then THEIR ELECTED rep has been attacked, belittled and pursued relentlessly by the same liberal minority that they PERCEIVE is destroying their culture.

 

And it is now pulling down their statues.

 

That's actually a really insightful point--it is definitely a perception thing.  People with motivated reasoning perceive a media to be "liberal" that is owned by like five major, multi-billion dollar corporations.  We are, of course, receiving news from these corporations that fits a corporatist ideal for the USA and the world, but because of "perception management", millions have become convinced that it's in fact pushing a socialist, left-wing agenda.  The Orwellian nature of it all is galling.

 

Likewise, the South has been allowed to hold a slew of unchallenged perceptions, factually wrong though they may be, for generations.  They've been allowed to continue to institutionalise racism and imaginary ideas about their own history and motivations.  The rest of us in the less backward parts of the States haven't done enough to confront these Neanderthals.  We have been complicit--and so the only logical outcome has finally arrived because we didn't do enough.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

They ( and it is they, not I) see the liberal agenda as harmful and toxic. The erosion of their concept of family, their religious views, their rights and morals and freedoms.

I accept that they are backward, outdated and a bit odd- but whether you like it or not there are feckin millions of them- and they want listened to.

They elected a president- Trump- and since then THEIR ELECTED rep has been attacked, belittled and pursued relentlessly by the same liberal minority that they PERCEIVE is destroying their culture.

 

And it is now pulling down their statues.

 

Perception doesn't equal fact though. And as much as everyone should be listened to, there also has to be a point at which you challenge perceptions which are either wrong or unworthy of attention.

 

For example, if a white christian in the deep south strictly opposes homosexuality, I'm sorry to say that society's moved on and their views are no longer fit to influence public policy or anything else. That's just the way it is.

[Justin Z]

Drives me crazy too. "You are inferior to me" versus "I want equality". On what planet is that balanced?

 

I think it probably does stem from the push for equality, and the pressure that comes from all different groups of people to pursue equality, but not because it's oppressive or stifling. When people are used to being in a position of privilege and power but that's not how it's labelled and they don't recognise their position as such, any push from others for a more equal footing probably is going to feel like discrimination of some sort, like someone trying to take something from you. I suppose, in some ways, they are trying to take something...but it's not something the group in power should have anyway.

 

So true, and good luck trying to get anyone to see that what they have is not equality, but superiority in the eyes and the arm of the law.

 

There was a rather touching juxtaposition of photographs out there recently.  One was the now well-known photo from Charlottesville of several dozen white men carrying tiki torches.  Another was a slight, completely unthreatening-looking Black woman standing on the pavement, about to be bowled over by police in full riot gear, during a Black Lives Matter protest.  That picture, next to the first, was worth far more than a thousand words.