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The terrible thing that's happened in america

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hueyview

The idiot driving into the crowd.....on the news...

 

 

I studied american civil war at Edinburgh university as part of my degree, back in the day. Trying to destroy statues of General Robert E Lee, is like the Taliban destroying the great statues in Afghanistan.

 

He was a great general and soldier, distinguished at west point... And seen as a hero of the south....

 

I am naturally, predetermained to be a Yankee with my Irish american roots, but the cr?eping neo facist liberalism makes my skin crawl.

 

I am clearly opposed to Trump-ism...but why tear down an american generals statue, unless to cause division and hate...

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Trapper John McIntyre

The idiot driving into the crowd.....on the news...

 

 

I studied american civil war at Edinburgh university as part of my degree, back in the day. Trying to destroy statues of General Robert E Lee, is like the Taliban destroying the great statues in Afghanistan.

 

He was a great general and soldier, distinguished at west point... And seen as a hero of the south....

 

I am naturally, predetermained to be a Yankee with my Irish american roots, but the cr?eping neo facist liberalism makes my skin crawl.

 

I am clearly opposed to Trump-ism...but why tear down an american generals statue, unless to cause division and hate...

 

You're completely right here regarding Robert E. Lee. If any rational person believed that taking down a statue of him would not cause a reaction they are living in a fantasy world.

 

The populism of Trump is a by-product of ever creeping political correctness. The two are compatible, two irrational extremes.

 

The middle must be found again.

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Boris

Wasn't the decision to remove Lee's statue taken before the Trump regime?

 

Let's face it, the Confederates lost, they were the "bad guys", and despite any honour that Lee may quite rightly deserve, he represents a regime that backed slavery.

 

So, I can understand why monuments to that regime should no longer exist. But that's my less than extensively researched argument on it.

 

In the fall out, trump was hardly equivecobal in his criticism of the terror attack. Because that's what it was, right?

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Trapper John McIntyre

Wasn't the decision to remove Lee's statue taken before the Trump regime?

 

Let's face it, the Confederates lost, they were the "bad guys", and despite any honour that Lee may quite rightly deserve, he represents a regime that backed slavery.

 

So, I can understand why monuments to that regime should no longer exist. But that's my less than extensively researched argument on it.

 

In the fall out, trump was hardly equivecobal in his criticism of the terror attack. Because that's what it was, right?

 

Just as Jeremy was less than equivocal about Venezuela?

 

As for the Confederates being the 'bad guys', I can actually imagine you Boris, wearing the Grey and charging fanatically with Pickett at Gettysburg in defence of states rights...

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Cade
Posted (edited)

Redneck, white supremacist, neo-nazi Confederates who refuse to accept that they lost and get over it are now rioting because symbols of their hatred are being removed.

 

Boo fecking hoo.

Edited by Cade

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Craig_

Get the impression this is going to become more and more common in the US. Place seems like a powderkeg right now.

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Trapper John McIntyre

Redneck, white supremacist, neo-nazi Confederates who refuse to accept that they lost and get over it are now rioting because symbols of their hatred are being removed.

 

Boo fecking hoo.

 

Robert E Lee was hated?

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elvoys

The idiot driving into the crowd.....on the news...

 

 

I studied american civil war at Edinburgh university as part of my degree, back in the day. Trying to destroy statues of General Robert E Lee, is like the Taliban destroying the great statues in Afghanistan.

 

He was a great general and soldier, distinguished at west point... And seen as a hero of the south....

 

I am naturally, predetermained to be a Yankee with my Irish american roots, but the cr?eping neo facist liberalism makes my skin crawl.

 

I am clearly opposed to Trump-ism...but why tear down an american generals statue, unless to cause division and hate...

His adult years were largely spent in the North and didn't really see the horrors of slavery so didn't have much of a view on it. His defense of the ceding states was as much about identity as it was for many in the south. I've heard it argued he was as antipathetic about it as Lincoln.

 

But there's an irony in that southern Confederate flag bearers have tried to uphold the imagined nobility of a land built and sustained through brutal slavery by making him a symbol of the typical 'honourable' southern gent.

 

In a way this alt right mob (a mix of frat type bro idiots and hardcore fascists imo) have used him for their purposes too - rage at changing demographics and pc white guilt.

 

And im not entirely sure he is what either the iconoclasts or white nationalists want him to be.

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hueyview

You're completely right here regarding Robert E. Lee. If any rational person believed that taking down a statue of him would not cause a reaction they are living in a fantasy world.

 

The populism of Trump is a by-product of ever creeping political correctness. The two are compatible, two irrational extremes.

 

The middle must be found again.

Well said..... Going by newsreels and movies, from the great depression till the end of the second world war....america was the heroes of the piece.... Then McCarthyism, cold war, Nam.. Dodgy regime changes in south america etc... We end up with Trump....

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Trapper John McIntyre
Posted (edited)

His adult years were largely spent in the North and didn't really see the horrors of slavery so didn't have much of a view on it. His defense of the ceding states was as much about identity as it was for many in the south. I've heard it argued he was as antipathetic about it as Lincoln.

 

But there's an irony in that southern Confederate flag bearers have tried to uphold the imagined nobility of a land built and sustained through brutal slavery by making him a symbol of the typical 'honourable' southern gent.

 

In a way this alt right mob (a mix of frat type bro idiots and hardcore fascists imo) have used him for their purposes too - rage at changing demographics and pc white guilt.

 

And im not entirely sure he is what either the iconoclasts or white nationalists want him to be.

 

True.

 

He was at best ambiguous about slavery. He was also offered command of the Northern army by Lincoln. He was in a pretty dire predicament and in the end chose to serve his state, Virginia.

 

He was a great general and a great man by any standard. He just picked the losing side.

 

I'm afraid the politcially correct are just as intransigent in their views as those swastika bearing nutcases sieg-heiling in Virginia today.

Edited by Trapper John McIntyre

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Peebo

The idiot driving into the crowd.....on the news...

 

 

I studied american civil war at Edinburgh university as part of my degree, back in the day. Trying to destroy statues of General Robert E Lee, is like the Taliban destroying the great statues in Afghanistan.

 

He was a great general and soldier, distinguished at west point... And seen as a hero of the south....

 

I am naturally, predetermained to be a Yankee with my Irish american roots, but the cr?eping neo facist liberalism makes my skin crawl.

 

I am clearly opposed to Trump-ism...but why tear down an american generals statue, unless to cause division and hate...

Not sure I'd agree with the Taliban comparison. A hugely divisive figure in the US, particularly the South, and I can understand why statues in his honour could be considered offensive and outdated. I guess the Taliban thought the same, but I doubt anyone could make a remotely robust argument about them being an oppressed people.

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Trapper John McIntyre

Not sure I'd agree with the Taliban comparison. A hugely divisive figure in the US, particularly the South, and I can understand why statues in his honour could be considered offensive and outdated. I guess the Taliban thought the same, but I doubt anyone could make a remotely robust argument about them being an oppressed people.

 

I don't think Lee is divisive in the South except obviously on racial grounds. Longstreet is the most divisive General in the white south.

 

Lee is generally admired throughout all of America.

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Peebo

I don't think Lee is divisive in the South except obviously on racial grounds. Longstreet is the most divisive General in the white south.

 

Lee is generally admired throughout all of America.

That's a pretty significant exception!

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hueyview

Wasn't the decision to remove Lee's statue taken before the Trump regime?

Let's face it, the Confederates lost, they were the "bad guys", and despite any honour that Lee may quite rightly deserve, he represents a regime that backed slavery.

So, I can understand why monuments to that regime should no longer exist. But that's my less than extensively researched argument on it.

In the fall out, trump was hardly equivecobal in his criticism of the terror attack. Because that's what it was, right?

Yes, I believe there has always been a sizable lobby to eradicate the south.... The statues, but more so the confederate flag, old Dixie.

 

As said, I would have been an abolishonist to slavery, but the bravemen who faught at Gettysburg, and throughout the war deserve dignity....

Over 90% were not slave owners, but took the founding fathers proclamations, of their rights as almost biblical...

 

Americans are a great people..... They will be there long after Trump and his hangers on are gone. Germany showed you don't need goose stepping idiots to be a great country...

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Trapper John McIntyre

That's a pretty significant exception!

It has been since 1861.

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hueyview

Redneck, white supremacist, neo-nazi Confederates who refuse to accept that they lost and get over it are now rioting because symbols of their hatred are being removed.

 

Boo fecking hoo.

A parity of this is closer too home. On one hand Irish repubicanism that dreams of a united Ireland. And Irish unionism who look back to glorious days.... Both probably genuinely heartfelt.. Its a!l about respecting the other guys beliefs...

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Peebo

A parity of this is closer too home. On one hand Irish repubicanism that dreams of a united Ireland. And Irish unionism who look back to glorious days.... Both probably genuinely heartfelt.. Its a!l about respecting the other guys beliefs...

...indeed...and not driving cars into each other or blowing people up...

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hueyview

Wasn't the decision to remove Lee's statue taken before the Trump regime?

Let's face it, the Confederates lost, they were the "bad guys", and despite any honour that Lee may quite rightly deserve, he represents a regime that backed slavery.

So, I can understand why monuments to that regime should no longer exist. But that's my less than extensively researched argument on it.

In the fall out, trump was hardly equivecobal in his criticism of the terror attack. Because that's what it was, right?

America was less than " three score and ten" years old.... I genuinely love !Lincoln, I know he's Republican, but a great man.

 

Difference with Lee and Trump.... Lee faught, gave quarter to prisoners, treated opposing soldiers as equals. Was respected by Grant, another great general/president...

 

Trump, make america greet again.... I can see wy folk voters for Hitler.....

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elvoys

His adult years were largely spent in the North and didn't really see the horrors of slavery so didn't have much of a view on it. His defense of the ceding states was as much about identity as it was for many in the south. I've heard it argued he was as antipathetic about it as Lincoln.

 

But there's an irony in that southern Confederate flag bearers have tried to uphold the imagined nobility of a land built and sustained through brutal slavery by making him a symbol of the typical 'honourable' southern gent.

 

In a way this alt right mob (a mix of frat type bro idiots and hardcore fascists imo) have used him for their purposes too - rage at changing demographics and pc white guilt.

 

And im not entirely sure he is what either the iconoclasts or white nationalists want him to be.

*apathetic

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hueyview

His adult years were largely spent in the North and didn't really see the horrors of slavery so didn't have much of a view on it. His defense of the ceding states was as much about identity as it was for many in the south. I've heard it argued he was as antipathetic about it as Lincoln.

But there's an irony in that southern Confederate flag bearers have tried to uphold the imagined nobility of a land built and sustained through brutal slavery by making him a symbol of the typical 'honourable' southern gent.

In a way this alt right mob (a mix of frat type bro idiots and hardcore fascists imo) have used him for their purposes too - rage at changing demographics and pc white guilt.

And im not entirely sure he is what either the iconoclasts or white nationalists want him to be.

The alt right mob, would not know chivalry, dignity or human recently if it bit them on the bum....

 

Its sad that several generals, not for monetay gain, faught and died for what they saw as american freedom...

 

Civil wars stink.....

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bobsharp

I just watched for some time the film of that car going into the crowd.  What a tragedy, two people who got up this morning no doubt at some point in tne day thinking of something they were going to do in the future. Right now a thirty two year old woman is dead, whatever she was thinking about in the future will not happen because there no longer is one. The driver of the car at the second that car hit the one in front of him will never spend another day of freedom in his life. I don't know if there is a death penalty in Virginia, but I am sure he will be in prison if not for the rest of his life.  How futile how stupid, all that fuss over a piece of stone carved to look like a man who died hundreds of years ago. I try very hard to  not use the word hate, and this incident exempifies my reasons, hate brings no satisfaction to anything, a wasted emotion, generally justified in many cases by causes that prove or achieve nothing.

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hueyview

True.

 

He was at best ambiguous about slavery. He was also offered command of the Northern army by Lincoln. He was in a pretty dire predicament and in the end chose to serve his state, Virginia.

 

He was a great general and a great man by any standard. He just picked the losing side.

 

I'm afraid the politcially correct are just as intransigent in their views as those swastika bearing nutcases sieg-heiling in Virginia today.

 

Excellent post..... I think of him like Ernst Rommel, a brilliant, Feld marrshall, general. Hated the stench of National socialism, but loved his country...

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hueyview

I don't think Lee is divisive in the South except obviously on racial grounds. Longstreet is the most divisive General in the white south.

 

Lee is generally admired throughout all of America.

I agree. There were as you mentioned militias....

Scum, like quantrelle raiders, and carpetbaggers.....

 

Just like the einsatsgruppen scum..who threw Jews and gypsies into the ovens..... Brave serving German troops were tarnished by them...

 

The first fatality of war, is truth.....

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hueyview

...indeed...and not driving cars into each other or blowing people up...

...indeed...and not driving cars into each other or blowing people up...

Correct my friend... Its a pity it took us 30 years in The British isles to see it..

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hueyview

I just watched for some time the film of that car going into the crowd.  What a tragedy, two people who got up this morning no doubt at some point in tne day thinking of something they were going to do in the future. Right now a thirty two year old woman is dead, whatever she was thinking about in the future will not happen because there no longer is one. The driver of the car at the second that car hit the one in front of him will never spend another day of freedom in his life. I don't know if there is a death penalty in Virginia, but I am sure he will be in prison if not for the rest of his life.  How futile how stupid, all that fuss over a piece of stone carved to look like a man who died hundreds of years ago. I try very hard to  not use the word hate, and this incident exempifies my reasons, hate brings no satisfaction to anything, a wasted emotion, generally justified in many cases by causes that prove or achieve nothing.

In principal I do not recognise the death sentence.... For deliberate murder 30 years, no automatic reduction....

 

Do the crime,do the time....

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Geoff Kilpatrick

They'll be coming for The Dukes of Hazzard reruns next!

 

Seriously, I'm glad I don't live there.

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Dunks
Posted (edited)

Wasn't the decision to remove Lee's statue taken before the Trump regime?

 

 

It is the Council that took the decision in April to sell the statue. Judge halted removal for a 6 month period back in May.

The also voted to rename Lee Park - Emancipation Park.

Edited by Dunks

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John Findlay

Redneck, white supremacist, neo-nazi Confederates who refuse to accept that they lost and get over it are now rioting because symbols of their hatred are being removed.

 

Boo fecking hoo.

See in a democracy. Even those considered the bad people are allowed their say. Your post is as intolerant as those you complain about. In a democracy you are allowed to complain. Think about it.

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Maple Leaf

Former KKK ?imperial wizard? David Duke said, ?This (protest) represents a turning point. We are determined to take our country back. We are going to fulfil the promises of Donald Trump. That?s why we voted for Donald Trump.?

 

Over at the Daily Stormer, the white supremacist website, there was jubilation. ?Trump comments were good. He didn?t attack us.... No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.?

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alfajambo

Former KKK ?imperial wizard? David Duke said, ?This (protest) represents a turning point. We are determined to take our country back. We are going to fulfil the promises of Donald Trump. That?s why we voted for Donald Trump.?

 

Over at the Daily Stormer, the white supremacist website, there was jubilation. ?Trump comments were good. He didn?t attack us.... No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.?

Move on.

You really have to look beyond the nonsense.

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Peebo

See in a democracy. Even those considered the bad people are allowed their say. Your post is as intolerant as those you complain about. In a democracy you are allowed to complain. Think about it.

Good lord.

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Boris

Excellent post..... I think of him like Ernst Rommel, a brilliant, Feld marrshall, general. Hated the stench of National socialism, but loved his country...

Rommel....seemed happy enough when the Germans were winning.

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Jambo-Jimbo

True.

 

He was at best ambiguous about slavery. He was also offered command of the Northern army by Lincoln. He was in a pretty dire predicament and in the end chose to serve his state, Virginia.

 

He was a great general and a great man by any standard. He just picked the losing side.

 

I'm afraid the politcially correct are just as intransigent in their views as those swastika bearing nutcases sieg-heiling in Virginia today.

 

Exactly, aren't the people who want this statue and others torn down because they don't agree with what they symbolise, displaying the same Intolerance and hatefulness that they claim to be against.

 

They can't re-write history just because it doesn't fit with today's values or thinking, you can not try and apply today's values or standards to that of a bygone age.

 

In 150 years time when people look back and discover the reasons why these statues are being taken down, don't you think they'll say what a bunch of intolerant hateful narrow-minded lot they must have been in the 2010's.

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Boris

Exactly, aren't the people who want this statue and others torn down because they don't agree with what they symbolise, displaying the same Intolerance and hatefulness that they claim to be against.

 

They can't re-write history just because it doesn't fit with today's values or thinking, you can not try and apply today's values or standards to that of a bygone age.

 

In 150 years time when people look back and discover the reasons why these statues are being taken down, don't you think they'll say what a bunch of intolerant hateful narrow-minded lot they must have been in the 2010's.

No.

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Peebo

Exactly, aren't the people who want this statue and others torn down because they don't agree with what they symbolise, displaying the same Intolerance and hatefulness that they claim to be against.

No.

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Jambo-Jimbo

No.

 

 

No.

 

Explain why no.

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Peebo

Explain why no.

A democratically-elected city council voted to remove a statue that people decided was no longer something they wanted displayed in a public park.

 

I don't believe they are displaying the same "intolerance and hatefulness" that is being displayed by other groups currently, or has been experienced in that part of the world over many, many years.

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Jambo-Jimbo

A democratically-elected city council voted to remove a statue that people decided was no longer something they wanted displayed in a public park.

 

I don't believe they are displaying the same "intolerance and hatefulness" that is being displayed by other groups currently, or has been experienced in that part of the world over many, many years.

 

The statue has been there since 1924, so why is it only now causing offence?

 

In my mind it is because people are trying to apply today's values and standards to it and what they perceive it symbolises today, not when it was erected but what they think it symbolises to their values today, surely that is a level of modern intolerance towards a symbol of something which happened before any of those who want it taken down were even born.  

It is a form of trying to re-write history to fit into what they want the world to look like to their eyes.

 

History is what it is, warts and all.

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Peebo

The statue has been there since 1924, so why is it only now causing offence?

 

In my mind it is because people are trying to apply today's values and standards to it and what they perceive it symbolises today, not when it was erected but what they think it symbolises to their values today, surely that is a level of modern intolerance towards a symbol of something which happened before any of those who want it taken down were even born.

It is a form of trying to re-write history to fit into what they want the world to look like to their eyes.

 

History is what it is, warts and all.

I think the "fact" it is only causing offence now is only in your mind!

 

I suggest any efforts to take it down in 1924 would have resulted in more than one death. And it certainly wouldn't have been a course of action decided through democratic channels!

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deesidejambo

I think the "fact" it is only causing offence now is only in your mind!

 

I suggest any efforts to take it down in 1924 would have resulted in more than one death. And it certainly wouldn't have been a course of action decided through democratic channels!

I think the point about trying to rewrite history is an important aspect.     Must read 1984 again.

 

The way to deal with these muppets is to ignore them and starve them of opportunity.  They will over time die away, like the far-right Afrikaaners are doing in South Africa.    

 

Alternatively giving them the opportunity to protest may also count against them as they show themselves up to be scum.   

 

not sure which way is best.

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Peebo

I think the point about trying to rewrite history is an important aspect. Must read 1984 again.

 

The way to deal with these muppets is to ignore them and starve them of opportunity. They will over time die away, like the far-right Afrikaaners are doing in South Africa.

 

Alternatively giving them the opportunity to protest may also count against them as they show themselves up to be scum.

 

not sure which way is best.

Personally not sure if anyone is trying to rewrite history by removing a statue. I've got a fairly decent comprehension of how such statues and symbols are interpreted and used in that part of the world, and understand why such a decision to remove might be taken.

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Jefferson Davis Hogg

They'll be coming for The Dukes of Hazzard reruns next!

 

Seriously, I'm glad I don't live there.

I hope not

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Devi

I don't think Lee is divisive in the South except obviously on racial grounds. Longstreet is the most divisive General in the white south.

 

Lee is generally admired throughout all of America.

To be fair, the initial recommendation was not to remove the statue but to update the plaque to reflect the historical facts. It was the vice mayor who raised a vote and removal was the chosen act.

 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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Jambo-Jimbo

I think the "fact" it is only causing offence now is only in your mind!

 

I suggest any efforts to take it down in 1924 would have resulted in more than one death. And it certainly wouldn't have been a course of action decided through democratic channels!

 

As I wasn't around in 1924 I can't possibly answer if the statue caused offence back then or not and neither can you I'd presume.

 

However I'd suggest that if it were likely to have caused offence back in 1924, it wouldn't have been erected in the first place, possibly.

 

But it's not just this one statue, there are others which campaigners are trying to or have succeeded to have removed, statues, street names, buildings are all under fire from the campaigners, Yale had to change the name of one of it's collages because it was originally named after a Pre-Civil War Southern Politician named John Calhoun who was a supporter of slavery.  In Princeton demands by campaigners to have the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs renamed because the former President held views that some consider as being racist.  Next they'll want his name removed as ever being a US President. 

 

In the UK recently we had a similar case (without the violence) concerning a statue of Cecil Rhodes at the Oriel Collage in Oxford, campaigners wanted the statue removed because in their eyes it was a symbol of British Colonialism and the abuse of the native population of what became known as Rhodesia.

Whilst they wanted the statue of Cecil Rhodes removed as it caused them offence, the very same students were obviously quite happy to sit in the building that was partly paid for by Rhodes, hypocrisy of the highest order, because if the statue of Cecil Rhodes caused offence then so would the building paid for by Cecil Rhodes cause offence as well, but I didn't see them rushing to sit outside in the rain to do their studies.

 

In nearly every village, town and city in the entire World there are statues, monuments or buildings named after someone who will cause offence to somebody, somewhere. 

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Devi

They'll be coming for The Dukes of Hazzard reruns next!

 

Seriously, I'm glad I don't live there.

They already have!

 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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Escobar PHM

Excellent post..... I think of him like Ernst Rommel, a brilliant, Feld marrshall, general. Hated the stench of National socialism, but loved his country...

Ernst Rommel ? Is that Erwins brother

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Cade

20 year old driver charged with 2nd degree murder.

 

Surely he should be charged with a terrorist offence, or is it only terrorism when brown people drive cars into crowds?

 

:tlj:

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Maple Leaf

Move on.

You really have to look beyond the nonsense.

The KKK and white supremacist groups in the USA love Trump and what he's doing.  When you say to move on, are you suggesting that people turn a blind eye to it? 

 

And if I looked beyond "the nonsense" as you suggest, what would I see?

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Ibrahim Tall
Posted (edited)

As I wasn't around in 1924 I can't possibly answer if the statue caused offence back then or not and neither can you I'd presume.

 

However I'd suggest that if it were likely to have caused offence back in 1924, it wouldn't have been erected in the first place, possibly.

 

In 1924? In 1924 in the South the black population was still effectively seen as subhuman by the majority of the ruling class, whether it offended 'them' wouldn't have been relevent. If anything pissing off 'blacks or Yankees' would have been a bonus. Edited by Ibrahim Tall

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Bauld

Leave to America to get confused over whether or not it wants civil war or nuclear war.

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