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Understanding the North Korean nightmare.


niblick1874

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You do realise if all "hell and fury" were rained down upon North Korea, thousands of US airmen, soldiers and sailors would die, hundreds of thousands of Korean and Japanese troops would and millions of innocent civilians would perish?

 

North Korea is a paranoid backwater. US strategy went from dealing with them to isolating them. They're an albatross flr China and an umstable, potentially disastrous neighbour for South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. Do you honestly think threatening them with hell fire is wise? Do you think war here is even remotely palatable?

 

Equally - Do you honestly believe a nation who cannot feed its people, power their homes, provide them the basics of modern life, can launch a rocket to hit mainland USA? Their rockets splash down in the China Sea and Sea of Japan.

 

Trump is a baffoon if he honestly believes a war is wise here, that sabre rattling will work or that bombing a nation with a million strong army within shelling distance of the populous Seoul and a kamikaze attitude and holding an estimated 50-60 nuclear devices will work then he's unfit for office.

 

This is like Cuba in 1962 but with a petulant 5 year old in the Kremlin and a dottery old egomaniac in the White House.

 

In the 1990s discussion was possible. Kim Jong-Il was willing to talk. His people were starving. His military weak. His time limited. Now they just don't care. Kim Jong-Un couldn't care less about starvation. He doesn't care if Pyongyang ends up a carter under a US ICBM, as long as we all go with him, fine.

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Seoul, one of the major world cities is just 40 miles over the border.

 

Even if they launched a warhead at LA I'd imagine you'd be looking at a few moabs and a fairly straight forward takeover of the country as militarised as it is.

 

Would be no Iraq type spillover as no religion of peace involved. Just a magical family descended from mountains myth burst ala Hirohito.

 

Happy to be told if this is oversimplified. Mark Bowen wrote at length in Atlantic over scenarios the other day.

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AlphonseCapone

You do realise if all "hell and fury" were rained down upon North Korea, thousands of US airmen, soldiers and sailors would die, hundreds of thousands of Korean and Japanese troops would and millions of innocent civilians would perish?

 

North Korea is a paranoid backwater. US strategy went from dealing with them to isolating them. They're an albatross flr China and an umstable, potentially disastrous neighbour for South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. Do you honestly think threatening them with hell fire is wise? Do you think war here is even remotely palatable?

 

Equally - Do you honestly believe a nation who cannot feed its people, power their homes, provide them the basics of modern life, can launch a rocket to hit mainland USA? Their rockets splash down in the China Sea and Sea of Japan.

 

Trump is a baffoon if he honestly believes a war is wise here, that sabre rattling will work or that bombing a nation with a million strong army within shelling distance of the populous Seoul and a kamikaze attitude and holding an estimated 50-60 nuclear devices will work then he's unfit for office.

 

This is like Cuba in 1962 but with a petulant 5 year old in the Kremlin and a dottery old egomaniac in the White House.

 

In the 1990s discussion was possible. Kim Jong-Il was willing to talk. His people were starving. His military weak. His time limited. Now they just don't care. Kim Jong-Un couldn't care less about starvation. He doesn't care if Pyongyang ends up a carter under a US ICBM, as long as we all go with him, fine.

I agree with the majority of your post but US intelligence have said they think they NK is moving faster than previously believed with missle technology. They believe they may be able to attach a miniturised nuclear device to missiles.

 

I'm not saying they will hit mainland USA (their attempts could be blown out the sky) but sitting back and assuming they won't have the technology sometime soon may not be wise.

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deesidejambo

I agree with the majority of your post but US intelligence have said they think they NK is moving faster than previously believed with missle technology. They believe they may be able to attach a miniturised nuclear device to missiles.

 

I'm not saying they will hit mainland USA (their attempts could be blown out the sky) but sitting back and assuming they won't have the technology sometime soon may not be wise.

I wonder if they are trying to goad the US into a first strike, after which yet again the US will be the "bad boys".

 

The problem is when they try another missile test the US will have no choice but to assume its a real attack and then respond.  Otherwise Trump will lose home support.

 

I so ronery.

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I wonder if they are trying to goad the US into a first strike, after which yet again the US will be the "bad boys".

 

The problem is when they try another missile test the US will have no choice but to assume its a real attack and then respond. Otherwise Trump will lose home support.

 

I so ronery.

They're goading no one. Kim is a madman running his own personal fiefdom. The Kims are gods to the North Koreans sent to deliver them from their would be oppressors.

 

They're mad enough to believe Trump is spoiling for a fight. If some reports are to be believed China and Russia are losing any remaining grip on the regieme's excesses.

 

My fear is a man who gets angry at tweets and threatens his own law makers over legal processes is stupid enough to ignore cooler heads and order this type of attack. Less goading and more a pre-WW1 Balkan situation where the smallest incident could spark a calamity because of miscommunication.

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I agree with the majority of your post but US intelligence have said they think they NK is moving faster than previously believed with missle technology. They believe they may be able to attach a miniturised nuclear device to missiles.

 

I'm not saying they will hit mainland USA (their attempts could be blown out the sky) but sitting back and assuming they won't have the technology sometime soon may not be wise.

And it's not. But we can deal with this in better ways than this.

 

Trump is playing the same game Nixon did in Vietnam and with the USSR. Madman strategy. Appear unhinged and threaten the worst. Have a few advisors leak there's concerns on direction. And ratchet up the tension till the other side blink.

 

Vietnam never did. But they never had the bomb.

 

North Korea won't either. Why? Because they're nuts. Dogmatic and introverted with little grasp of reality. Fanatics who don't care how many burn with them. It's a perfect storm.

 

The key is China. And China won't act if threatened by the USA. But China must start to remove the Kims and open DPRK leaderships eyes to that need.

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Riddley Walker

Sam Harris' recent interview with Mark Bowden on his podcast is the best overview I've heard of the situation.

 

Basically war is the last thing anyone on the S Korea or US side wants due to Seoul's proximity to the North. Any military strike on the North would likely result in hundreds of thousands of S Korean civilian deaths.

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I honestly can't believe for a minute that this wee Kim Jong cannot just be taken out with a missle and North Korea's regime would collapse overnight.

 

I also don't believe for a second that DPRK have the technology to threaten anyone. Pure propaganda.

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deesidejambo

I honestly can't believe for a minute that this wee Kim Jong cannot just be taken out with a missle and North Korea's regime would collapse overnight.

 

I also don't believe for a second that DPRK have the technology to threaten anyone. Pure propaganda.

Nope. They have a massive army that will storm over the border when told to. There will be mayhem. The US will win any war but the human cost will be tragic. The North will start it so when they do I hope the US absolutely flattens them quickly.

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Just the usual

 

Horrible internal conditions

 

So do something to create an external enemy

Orwell is beyond genius - Prophetesque.

 

NK is pretty much Oceania down to the smallest detail. Irony is that his fiction prose (not his essays) was a bit clunky and didn't really 'sing' like the greats

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Nope. They have a massive army that will storm over the border when told to. There will be mayhem. The US will win any war but the human cost will be tragic. The North will start it so when they do I hope the US absolutely flattens them quickly.

Apparently the big shell guns in the demilitarized zone are trained on Seoul and could be laced with all and sundry. They are as big a worry as a warhead. To back up your post, US vets of the Korean War remarks in the endless waves of em.

 

Martial culture (Koreans altogether), maybe why they make such kick ass hyper masculine movies ( Kim Ki Duks stuff is boss)

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Nope. They have a massive army that will storm over the border when told to. There will be mayhem. The US will win any war but the human cost will be tragic. The North will start it so when they do I hope the US absolutely flattens them quickly.

In a conventional war.

The Americans could flatten their whole artillery, bomb all their airfields, sink their entire navy and hack all their weapons systems before they even get a shot off.

All NK technology is 40-60 years old, absolutely no match for the Americans if they went balls out and unleashed a quarter of their firepower.

Yes NK have 1.7million troops and 8 million reserves but do you think they would have any stomach for a fight?

I don't believe that they are as brainwashed as people think. I think they'd desert the regime pretty quickly knowing that a better life exists. They're just hungry and terrified of being executed or sent to a camp so they tow the line.

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Nope. They have a massive army that will storm over the border when told to. There will be mayhem. The US will win any war but the human cost will be tragic. The North will start it so when they do I hope the US absolutely flattens them quickly.

If war breaks out, can there be really any winner?

 

As you say, the human cost will be tragic. Meanwhile, those politicians who decide to start the war will be safe and sound.

 

When you say that you hope the US flattens them, I'm sure that you realise that the people who get flattened are not the ones who are doing all the sabre rattling.

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Alwayssunnyingorgie

In a conventional war.

The Americans could flatten their whole artillery, bomb all their airfields, sink their entire navy and hack all their weapons systems before they even get a shot off.

All NK technology is 40-60 years old, absolutely no match for the Americans if they went balls out and unleashed a quarter of their firepower.

Yes NK have 1.7million troops and 8 million reserves but do you think they would have any stomach for a fight?

I don't believe that they are as brainwashed as people think. I think they'd desert the regime pretty quickly knowing that a better life exists. They're just hungry and terrified of being executed or sent to a camp so they tow the line.

 

There's approx 80k U.S troops in the region with about 30k in south Korea. Do you think they have any chance against over a million troops?

 

Being low tech can be an advantage Russia in WWII destroyed probably the most advanced army in the world with sheer numbers, Yes they developed decent tanks later in the war but it was the numbers that made the difference. The taliban gave us a hard time with weapons that are 40-50years old, The north done pretty well at the start of the Korean war nearly pushing the U.N out, They are fed propaganda everyday on how the USA is the devil or what ever so don't doubt if they have the hunger for a fight,

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There's approx 80k U.S troops in the region with about 30k in south Korea. Do you think they have any chance against over a million troops?

 

Being low tech can be an advantage Russia in WWII destroyed probably the most advanced army in the world with sheer numbers, Yes they developed decent tanks later in the war but it was the numbers that made the difference. The taliban gave us a hard time with weapons that are 40-50years old, The north done pretty well at the start of the Korean war nearly pushing the U.N out, They are fed propaganda everyday on how the USA is the devil or what ever so don't doubt if they have the hunger for a fight,

It's a nightmare that some just aren't getting.

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You do realise if all "hell and fury" were rained down upon North Korea, thousands of US airmen, soldiers and sailors would die, hundreds of thousands of Korean and Japanese troops would and millions of innocent civilians would perish?

 

North Korea is a paranoid backwater. US strategy went from dealing with them to isolating them. They're an albatross flr China and an umstable, potentially disastrous neighbour for South Korea, Japan and Taiwan. Do you honestly think threatening them with hell fire is wise? Do you think war here is even remotely palatable?

 

Equally - Do you honestly believe a nation who cannot feed its people, power their homes, provide them the basics of modern life, can launch a rocket to hit mainland USA? Their rockets splash down in the China Sea and Sea of Japan.

 

Trump is a baffoon if he honestly believes a war is wise here, that sabre rattling will work or that bombing a nation with a million strong army within shelling distance of the populous Seoul and a kamikaze attitude and holding an estimated 50-60 nuclear devices will work then he's unfit for office.

 

This is like Cuba in 1962 but with a petulant 5 year old in the Kremlin and a dottery old egomaniac in the White House.

 

In the 1990s discussion was possible. Kim Jong-Il was willing to talk. His people were starving. His military weak. His time limited. Now they just don't care. Kim Jong-Un couldn't care less about starvation. He doesn't care if Pyongyang ends up a carter under a US ICBM, as long as we all go with him, fine.

 

You have no idea what I think of this. You have no idea what I know about it. Are you trying to get a reaction out of me or paint me in a certain way? Sad but predictable.

 

Edit, you are also way of the mark with what you try to put over as my stand point.

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michael_bolton

I live in Seoul and there's a big US Army base at the end of my street.

 

Not worried for now, but I'd rather the Americans would cool it a bit.

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There's approx 80k U.S troops in the region with about 30k in south Korea. Do you think they have any chance against over a million troops?

 

Being low tech can be an advantage Russia in WWII destroyed probably the most advanced army in the world with sheer numbers, Yes they developed decent tanks later in the war but it was the numbers that made the difference. The taliban gave us a hard time with weapons that are 40-50years old, The north done pretty well at the start of the Korean war nearly pushing the U.N out, They are fed propaganda everyday on how the USA is the devil or what ever so don't doubt if they have the hunger for a fight,

Honestly I don't think N.Korea would stand a hope in hell of getting a massive invading force within a mile of the S.Korean border ,if it came to that. The US air force and navy would obliterate them from the air and the sea. They'll know where almost all their artillery is, their bases, everything and N.Korea simply doesn't have the defences to stop them. Of course there will be many casualties on the US/Korean side as well as many civillians but I don't believe they would be able to launch a massive artillery bombardment and invasion without the Americans hitting them first. That tinpot dictator is just doing what they all do, sabre rattling to show his people they are powerful, I don't believe he would strike first despite his threats.

 

On your second paragraph. That was then, this is now, that old technology wouldn't last 10 seconds. It might have worked in the 40's 50's or 60's but with guided missiles, satellites, drones etc.. It would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Look at what happened to the Iraqis in the 1st and 2nd Gulf war and to the Viet/Chinese air force in the Vietnam war against better technology then.

 

Afghanistan wasn't conventional warfare, either was Iraq after it had been invaded. Pretty hard to tell the difference between friend or foe when they are hiding amongst a civilian population where you can't just level the place. This I believe would be different, the Americans would just hit N.Korea with everything, short of Nuclear, to stop the likelihood of massive casualties on the South and then invade the Country.

 

I don't believe they are all brainwashed at all because of the thousands of defectors every year desperate to escape. Just like many dictatorships, their strength in propaganda and the fear of stepping out of line is their greatest weakness. Most of them privately will know that life is better on the outside due to the western propaganda, those who are technology savvy, the little things they hear. There's a huge black market in North Korea for example. I have no doubt those who are close to the regime, those who have better lives may well be gone to a point of no return and fight to their last but once that facade starts to crumble and the people see that they will desert in droves.

 

Hopefully though it doesn't come to that and there is another way to remove this little nutter from his perch without a shot fired. It would be a great day for the world to see North Korea and the South on peaceful terms with the people of North Korea having the freedoms we all enjoy.

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Ibrahim Tall

There's approx 80k U.S troops in the region with about 30k in south Korea. Do you think they have any chance against over a million troops?

 

Being low tech can be an advantage Russia in WWII destroyed probably the most advanced army in the world with sheer numbers, Yes they developed decent tanks later in the war but it was the numbers that made the difference. The taliban gave us a hard time with weapons that are 40-50years old, The north done pretty well at the start of the Korean war nearly pushing the U.N out, They are fed propaganda everyday on how the USA is the devil or what ever so don't doubt if they have the hunger for a fight,

While mentioning the 80,000 Americans against a million N Koreans it's worth remembering the South is hardly weak and defenceless. It has a standing army itself of nearly 700,000 with over 3 million in reserve.

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Honestly I don't think N.Korea would stand a hope in hell of getting a massive invading force within a mile of the S.Korean border ,if it came to that. The US air force and navy would obliterate them from the air and the sea. They'll know where almost all their artillery is, their bases, everything and N.Korea simply doesn't have the defences to stop them. Of course there will be many casualties on the US/Korean side as well as many civillians but I don't believe they would be able to launch a massive artillery bombardment and invasion without the Americans hitting them first. That tinpot dictator is just doing what they all do, sabre rattling to show his people they are powerful, I don't believe he would strike first despite his threats.

 

On your second paragraph. That was then, this is now, that old technology wouldn't last 10 seconds. It might have worked in the 40's 50's or 60's but with guided missiles, satellites, drones etc.. It would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Look at what happened to the Iraqis in the 1st and 2nd Gulf war and to the Viet/Chinese air force in the Vietnam war against better technology then.

 

Afghanistan wasn't conventional warfare, either was Iraq after it had been invaded. Pretty hard to tell the difference between friend or foe when they are hiding amongst a civilian population where you can't just level the place. This I believe would be different, the Americans would just hit N.Korea with everything, short of Nuclear, to stop the likelihood of massive casualties on the South and then invade the Country.

 

I don't believe they are all brainwashed at all because of the thousands of defectors every year desperate to escape. Just like many dictatorships, their strength in propaganda and the fear of stepping out of line is their greatest weakness. Most of them privately will know that life is better on the outside due to the western propaganda, those who are technology savvy, the little things they hear. There's a huge black market in North Korea for example. I have no doubt those who are close to the regime, those who have better lives may well be gone to a point of no return and fight to their last but once that facade starts to crumble and the people see that they will desert in droves.

 

Hopefully though it doesn't come to that and there is another way to remove this little nutter from his perch without a shot fired. It would be a great day for the world to see North Korea and the South on peaceful terms with the people of North Korea having the freedoms we all enjoy.

 

I accept that the USA has the largest/most expensive/most modern military in the world and they have done so since the 1940s.

 

But they didn't win the Korean war, they didn't win the Vietnam war, they didn't win in Afghanistan and they can't even really claim that they won in Iraq.  

 

I'm not so sure how they would do in a fight with N Korea. 

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Ibrahim Tall

I accept that the USA has the largest/most expensive/most modern military in the world and they have done so since the 1940s.

 

But they didn't win the Korean war, they didn't win the Vietnam war, they didn't win in Afghanistan and they can't even really claim that they won in Iraq.  

 

I'm not so sure how they would do in a fight with N Korea.

 

To be honest, to say they didn't win the Afghan war isn't strictly correct. They 'won' the actual war with complete ease, just as they did in Iraq twice. The issue was in securing the peace and stability afterwards which in both cases was a complete failure for various reasons but 99% of these reasons wouldn't be a factor in a post-war N Korea.

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There's approx 80k U.S troops in the region with about 30k in south Korea. Do you think they have any chance against over a million troops?

 

Being low tech can be an advantage Russia in WWII destroyed probably the most advanced army in the world with sheer numbers, Yes they developed decent tanks later in the war but it was the numbers that made the difference. The taliban gave us a hard time with weapons that are 40-50years old, The north done pretty well at the start of the Korean war nearly pushing the U.N out, They are fed propaganda everyday on how the USA is the devil or what ever so don't doubt if they have the hunger for a fight,

Or China and North Korea in the Korean war. Wave after wave of troops pushing UN forces south.

 

Any war there woukd be as catastrophic.

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You have no idea what I think of this. You have no idea what I know about it. Are you trying to get a reaction out of me or paint me in a certain way? Sad but predictable.

 

Edit, you are also way of the mark with what you try to put over as my stand point.

Nibs, you left a link advocating Trump's warmongering strategy opposed to Clinton/Bush/Obama's de-escalation one. No context of your own point or view.

 

What other conclusion was to be drawn?

 

Explain your own view and you may get more understanding.

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To be honest, to say they didn't win the Afghan war isn't strictly correct. They 'won' the actual war with complete ease, just as they did in Iraq twice. The issue was in securing the peace and stability afterwards which in both cases was a complete failure for various reasons but 99% of these reasons wouldn't be a factor in a post-war N Korea.

I think in any post-war victory in NK you'd face a fanaticised people who would've lost their leader and be utterly uncaring in how they dealt with their occupiers.

 

North Korea is a massive basket case of epic proportions.

 

I remember reading that re-educating the people and modernising the nation would near bankrupt the South in the event of unification.

 

It's a problem without a tangible solution.

 

In fact the only one I see is collapse from within whilst MAD keeps the peace.

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deesidejambo

If war breaks out, can there be really any winner?

 

As you say, the human cost will be tragic. Meanwhile, those politicians who decide to start the war will be safe and sound.

 

When you say that you hope the US flattens them, I'm sure that you realise that the people who get flattened are not the ones who are doing all the sabre rattling.

So once the war starts you would prefer the North to invade and slaughter the Souths civilians? Not me. If there is going to be carnage then I'd prefer the North to be on the recieving end, not the South.

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I think in any post-war victory in NK you'd face a fanaticised people who would've lost their leader and be utterly uncaring in how they dealt with their occupiers.

 

North Korea is a massive basket case of epic proportions.

 

I remember reading that re-educating the people and modernising the nation would near bankrupt the South in the event of unification.

 

It's a problem without a tangible solution.

 

In fact the only one I see is collapse from within whilst MAD keeps the peace.

It is estimated that around 20-50% of the NK population still believe the majority of the propaganda. The rest are aware of life outside their country. This number is likely growing, due to access to DVD's, memory sticks, and defector led radio that is slowly but surely propagating throughout the country.

 

So not quite a basket case of a country as you make out.

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loveofthegame

Yes NK have 1.7million troops and 8 million reserves but do you think they would have any stomach for a fight?

I don't believe that they are as brainwashed as people think. I think they'd desert the regime pretty quickly knowing that a better life exists. They're just hungry and terrified of being executed or sent to a camp so they tow the line.

 

Ever read about a nation of people called the Japanese in an event called  WWII?!

 

History tells us that brainwashed folk from a region in the Far East are willing to fight to, almost literally, the very last man.

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The USA have enough arsenal at their deposal to literary fight a war against the whole entire world and still comfortably win. The only real threat to their military dominance is the British Navy and even then we are pale shadow in comparison.

 

North Korea hold no threat to America.

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The USA have enough arsenal at their deposal to literary fight a war against the whole entire world and still comfortably win. The only real threat to their military dominance is the British Navy and even then we are pale shadow in comparison.

 

North Korea hold no threat to America.

So what, we (the world), just ignore them?

 

To say they pose no threat is ignorant. Of course, it is likely that in the long term, the USA would win any war with NK, but there would be huge casualties on both sides initially, including a huge number of civilians.

 

Also, you have to factor in the geopolitical implications of any war in the region. The are immeasurable. Nobody really knows how it would play out in real terms, and that for me, is the biggest worry.

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The USA have enough arsenal at their deposal to literary fight a war against the whole entire world and still comfortably win. The only real threat to their military dominance is the British Navy and even then we are pale shadow in comparison.

 

North Korea hold no threat to America.

That's not really the point. We know who would win. But at what cost?

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deesidejambo

The USA have enough arsenal at their deposal to literary fight a war against the whole entire world and still comfortably win. The only real threat to their military dominance is the British Navy and even then we are pale shadow in comparison.

 

North Korea hold no threat to America.

Agreed.  But they do hold a massive threat to South Korea.  Thats where the North have the bargaining position.  If they open up on the South and hit Seoul there will be massive casualties within a few minutes that the US or the South cannot stop.

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So what, we (the world), just ignore them?

 

To say they pose no threat is ignorant. Of course, it is likely that in the long term, the USA would win any war with NK, but there would be huge casualties on both sides initially, including a huge number of civilians.

 

Also, you have to factor in the geopolitical implications of any war in the region. The are immeasurable. Nobody really knows how it would play out in real terms, and that for me, is the biggest worry.

I am not saying they should be ignored. Their citizens deserve to be enlightened about the real world rather living in total and utter ignorance.

 

However, Invading and bombing a country will bring death to many civilians. It would destabilize the region and millions would seek to flee to China and South Korea.

 

Better with what we have ATM. Not great but the alternative isn't worth thinking about.

 

The North Korean citizens need to fight for their own liberty.

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deesidejambo

I am not saying they should be ignored. Their citizens deserve to be enlightened about the real world rather living in total and utter ignorance.

 

However, Invading and bombing a country will bring death to many civilians. It would destabilize the region and millions would seek to flee to China and South Korea.

 

Better with what we have ATM. Not great but the alternative isn't worth thinking about.

 

The North Korean citizens need to fight for their own liberty.

Of course the current situation is OK - but the problem is now that if the North launch another missile the US will have no choice but to assume its targeted at Guam or another Western location.    They cant just sit back and let missiles be fired at their territory or allies.  

 

They would have to respond.   Then the North use that as a mandate to invade the South.  then carnage.

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AlphonseCapone

There's approx 80k U.S troops in the region with about 30k in south Korea. Do you think they have any chance against over a million troops?

 

Being low tech can be an advantage Russia in WWII destroyed probably the most advanced army in the world with sheer numbers, Yes they developed decent tanks later in the war but it was the numbers that made the difference. The taliban gave us a hard time with weapons that are 40-50years old, The north done pretty well at the start of the Korean war nearly pushing the U.N out, They are fed propaganda everyday on how the USA is the devil or what ever so don't doubt if they have the hunger for a fight,

I get what you are saying and agree with the overall point but I think you've oversimplified the WW2 example. It was much more complex than large numbers v advanced military. You had stretched supply lines, offensive v defensive, one nation split their forces, home turf, Russian winter etc.

 

Some of those points are also relevant to the current debate though .

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AlphonseCapone

The USA have enough arsenal at their deposal to literary fight a war against the whole entire world and still comfortably win. The only real threat to their military dominance is the British Navy and even then we are pale shadow in comparison.

 

North Korea hold no threat to America.

I'm no expert by any means but I wasn't under the impression the UK navy was even close to second best?

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Alwayssunnyingorgie

Honestly I don't think N.Korea would stand a hope in hell of getting a massive invading force within a mile of the S.Korean border ,if it came to that. The US air force and navy would obliterate them from the air and the sea. They'll know where almost all their artillery is, their bases, everything and N.Korea simply doesn't have the defences to stop them. Of course there will be many casualties on the US/Korean side as well as many civillians but I don't believe they would be able to launch a massive artillery bombardment and invasion without the Americans hitting them first. That tinpot dictator is just doing what they all do, sabre rattling to show his people they are powerful, I don't believe he would strike first despite his threats.

 

On your second paragraph. That was then, this is now, that old technology wouldn't last 10 seconds. It might have worked in the 40's 50's or 60's but with guided missiles, satellites, drones etc.. It would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Look at what happened to the Iraqis in the 1st and 2nd Gulf war and to the Viet/Chinese air force in the Vietnam war against better technology then.

 

Afghanistan wasn't conventional warfare, either was Iraq after it had been invaded. Pretty hard to tell the difference between friend or foe when they are hiding amongst a civilian population where you can't just level the place. This I believe would be different, the Americans would just hit N.Korea with everything, short of Nuclear, to stop the likelihood of massive casualties on the South and then invade the Country.

 

I don't believe they are all brainwashed at all because of the thousands of defectors every year desperate to escape. Just like many dictatorships, their strength in propaganda and the fear of stepping out of line is their greatest weakness. Most of them privately will know that life is better on the outside due to the western propaganda, those who are technology savvy, the little things they hear. There's a huge black market in North Korea for example. I have no doubt those who are close to the regime, those who have better lives may well be gone to a point of no return and fight to their last but once that facade starts to crumble and the people see that they will desert in droves.

 

Hopefully though it doesn't come to that and there is another way to remove this little nutter from his perch without a shot fired. It would be a great day for the world to see North Korea and the South on peaceful terms with the people of North Korea having the freedoms we all enjoy.

 

You know they have found tunnels capable of moving 30k troops a hour, If NK get over the border and they will it will come down to numbers and who's hungry. Even if only 50% of NKs fight they are going to be tough to beat, the Japanese were written off in WWII and look what they done. NK are being totally written off, As shit as their weapons are they still go bang and that's what matters.

 

 

America and Britain have just spent the best part of 15 years at war, We don't have the stomach for another, We were wanting out of Afghanistan because we lost 3-400 guys America lost 2,000 they don't want another war, Trump and May are unpopular leaders, Kim while he has defectors still has the masses believing he's a God. NK could really nip over take Seoul and park the bus and they win.

 

 

The best thing to do is drop a few MOABs on kim and his top men and leave the country to sort its self out,

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That's not really the point. We know who would win. But at what cost?

Indeed. You could be looking at hundreds of thousands of South Korean civilian casualties. I think we all want to avoid that - especially the South Koreans!

 

The article elvoys mentioned earlier on The Atlantic is well worth reading with regards to potential outcomes.

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The Royal Navy is about 5th or 6th in the world, both by total tonnage in the water and by probable combat capabilities.

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Space Mackerel

Thought this Trump fella wasn't going to get involved in any future wars?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Unknown user

Or China and North Korea in the Korean war. Wave after wave of troops pushing UN forces south.

 

Any war there woukd be as catastrophic.

The lack of China being mentioned in this thread has been very strange - there's no way they're going to be cool with the US taking military action against them imo.

 

Maybe it's more likely that China will take the bull by the horns and take out the chubby radge themselves in the interests of stability. I'd like to think no one wants war. Except the wee radge.

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Can't the US not just shoot down all these missile tests?

Even their most successful tests of their most advanced systems only hit the target about 50% of the time.

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Ibrahim Tall

You know they have found tunnels capable of moving 30k troops a hour, If NK get over the border and they will it will come down to numbers and who's hungry. Even if only 50% of NKs fight they are going to be tough to beat, the Japanese were written off in WWII and look what they done. NK are being totally written off, As shit as their weapons are they still go bang and that's what matters.

America and Britain have just spent the best part of 15 years at war, We don't have the stomach for another, We were wanting out of Afghanistan because we lost 3-400 guys America lost 2,000 they don't want another war, Trump and May are unpopular leaders, Kim while he has defectors still has the masses believing he's a God. NK could really nip over take Seoul and park the bus and they win.

The best thing to do is drop a few MOABs on kim and his top men and leave the country to sort its self out,

TBH wanting out of Afghan isn't a fair comparison. People wanted out of Afghanistan mainly because every person knew it was of no real threat to either the U.K. or United States. It's far harder to justify military deaths in a worthless conflict with no real cause. As a country it wasn't threatening a nuclear holocaust, it wasn't creating propaganda with the White House consumed by flames, it wasn't testing nuclear weapons or shooting missiles near our allies or planning to land them in sea a few miles shy of American territory.

Even in the height of the Cold War neither the Soviets or US openly taunted or threatened each other to the extent that North Korea has been doing particularly in recent years. Yes, it's pretty debatable the threats are anything other than hollow and full of hot air in an effort to secure itself and blackmail for greater aid or reduction of sanctions but you can't allow an increasing threat for eternity. Particularly when the person handing out threats is armed with nuclear, chemical and biological weapons that could kill millions of innocent civilians.

Be it via diplomacy or military action the North Korean 'problem' does need to be resolved and decades of putting it off has only made the eventual consequences worse and will continue to do so.

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The war of words continue after Donald Trump say's that the US military are 'Locked & Loaded' against North Korea if Kim does anything 'Unwise'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40901746

 

Dangerous game being played here where neither man or country can now back down without losing face.

 

If North Korea carry out their plan of firing missiles towards Guam, America says it will act, so if North Korea don't now fire missiles towards Guam, Kim loses face, equally if the North does fire missiles towards Guam and America does nothing then it's Trump who loses face.

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Mac_fae_Gillie

NK has given the USA the right to shoot down any missiles. By declaring the intention of shooting missiles at Guam( or now the sea near Guam they backed down after 1 day) any missile lauch can be treated as a threat.. best option on USA side is do nothing. Let NK go as far as it wants maybe if they do attack you can actually get world backing to take out the NK regime.

Got to let NK be the attackers here, army of 1.7million will cause chaos for months but once the head has been cut off the whole saga will end..

Would be a shame if the NK regime falls though as they all look so funny with those fat faces  and goose stepping to Benny Hill tune will hurt youtude videos.

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