Cathro: Quality not Quantity

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Saying this is the "same pish" isn't quite right I don't think.

 

Our prior three summers we clearly went for a handful of high risk/high reward players -- players from abroad who were athletically gifted but underperforming -- every window.  We got Sow and El Hass on similar deals and similar risks.  One became our best striker in a decade and fetched us a seven figure transfer fee and the other kicked a ball about a dozen times.

 

I think Cathro is explicitly moving away from this (and Levein has learned his lesson), as the Berra signing indicates.  I think we'll be signing demonstrated high quality performers at a few key positions then filling in with academy players.  It will be a different look for us for sure but given the last six months I'm ready for a major change in direction.

[Jodami]

Saying this is the "same pish" isn't quite right I don't think.

 

Our prior three summers we clearly went for a handful of high risk/high reward players -- players from abroad who were athletically gifted but underperforming -- every window.  We got Sow and El Hass on similar deals and similar risks.  One became our best striker in a decade and fetched us a seven figure transfer fee and the other kicked a ball about a dozen times.

 

I think Cathro is explicitly moving away from this (and Levein has learned his lesson), as the Berra signing indicates.  I think we'll be signing demonstrated high quality performers at a few key positions then filling in with academy players.  It will be a different look for us for sure but given the last six months I'm ready for a major change in direction.

I can't see how we are going to sign high quality performers when we cannot pay high salaries, quite rightly I might add. The article alludes to Berra not being driven by money and it's only his family situation that has made the deal possible. Anyone thinking here comes a glut of much better players is going to be disappointed. We need proven quality players in the league, some of them may not generate a great deal of excitement, and a manager who can shape them and motivate them. In addition we need to be improving young players to challenge for a first team game. I don't think Cathro should still be our manager but he is so he needs to start showing qualities which have thus far not been in evidence.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I can't see how we are going to sign high quality performers when we cannot pay high salaries, quite rightly I might add. The article alludes to Berra not being driven by money and it's only his family situation that has made the deal possible. Anyone thinking here comes a glut of much better players is going to be disappointed. We need proven quality players in the league, some of them may not generate a great deal of excitement, and a manager who can shape them and motivate them. In addition we need to be improving young players to challenge for a first team game. I don't think Cathro should still be our manager but he is so he needs to start showing qualities which have thus far not been in evidence.

 

I don't disagree with much of this.  I suppose I meant "high quality players" speaking relatively.  The names like Paul Caddis getting mentioned are not going to demand enormous salaries but are proven performers. That's very different than, say, Rherras or Johnsen or Augustyn, all of whom were physically and athletically superior but not as skilled or proven at this level.

 

Cathro said 4-5 players and I think that may not be far off from the result.  Our bench may be filled out by players like Beith, Smith, or Currie rather than bargain basement imports like we've brought in previous summers.

 

It bears mentioning that of all of the qualities Cathro has demonstrably lacked, he has a very proven record of developing young players, which I suspect may be why we're giving him a bit more time.

[269miles]

I can't see how we are going to sign high quality performers when we cannot pay high salaries, quite rightly I might add. The article alludes to Berra not being driven by money and it's only his family situation that has made the deal possible. Anyone thinking here comes a glut of much better players is going to be disappointed. We need proven quality players in the league, some of them may not generate a great deal of excitement, and a manager who can shape them and motivate them. In addition we need to be improving young players to challenge for a first team game. I don't think Cathro should still be our manager but he is so he needs to start showing qualities which have thus far not been in evidence.

I agree.

 

My main concern is not the "quality" of the potential signings (on the money we are paying , there isn't going to be much, let's not kid ourselves ) but that in the market we are shopping  there's going to be a lot of competition for anything decent in our price range. I think that means players not being signed early enough. I'm genuinely dreading next season - an entire first team that has to get to grips with a coach who seems incapable of adapting to the abilities of his personnel to deliver what he thinks is right. That team will have no margin for error and no time for bonding as a significant number of fans have already given up on IC. Whoever comes in won't just have to be good , they'll have to hit the ground running and have a very thick skin. 

 

The signing of Berra is a sign of how desperate we are. It is staggering after all the club has said over the last two seasons but fans are lapping it up. I've nothing against CB , I'm glad he's coming but it flies in the face of everything we are supposed to be doing on the player front. 

[Jammy T]

Having read the article not just the headline it's a decent interview.

 

It's not just quality it's the reasoning behind what we need in a player and what we don't have.

 

Anyway as i have said I can't see Cathro doing anything unless he has at least 8 players of Berras quality.

[Coco]

I don't disagree with much of this. I suppose I meant "high quality players" speaking relatively. The names like Paul Caddis getting mentioned are not going to demand enormous salaries but are proven performers. That's very different than, say, Rherras or Johnsen or Augustyn, all of whom were physically and athletically superior but not as skilled or proven at this level.

 

Cathro said 4-5 players and I think that may not be far off from the result. Our bench may be filled out by players like Beith, Smith, or Currie rather than bargain basement imports like we've brought in previous summers.

 

It bears mentioning that of all of the qualities Cathro has demonstrably lacked, he has a very proven record of developing young players, which I suspect may be why we're giving him a bit more time.

I don't think Cathro has any record in developing young players. He coached children at Dundee United - very different from developing players.

[Buffalo Bill]

I agree.

 

My main concern is not the "quality" of the potential signings (on the money we are paying , there isn't going to be much, let's not kid ourselves ) but that in the market we are shopping  there's going to be a lot of competition for anything decent in our price range. I think that means players not being signed early enough. I'm genuinely dreading next season - an entire first team that has to get to grips with a coach who seems incapable of adapting to the abilities of his personnel to deliver what he thinks is right. That team will have no margin for error and no time for bonding as a significant number of fans have already given up on IC. Whoever comes in won't just have to be good , they'll have to hit the ground running and have a very thick skin. 

 

The signing of Berra is a sign of how desperate we are. It is staggering after all the club has said over the last two seasons but fans are lapping it up. I've nothing against CB , I'm glad he's coming but it flies in the face of everything we are supposed to be doing on the player front. 

 

 

A wee bit over-dramatic, m8.

 

Enjoy your summer, re-charge your batteries and come back for the League Cup group section where you see a new look Hearts team that will almost certainly be an improvement on last season's rubbish.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I don't think Cathro has any record in developing young players. He coached children at Dundee United - very different from developing players.

 

Gauld, Souttar, and Armstrong?

[wavydavy]

A wee bit over-dramatic, m8.

 

Enjoy your summer, re-charge your batteries and come back for the League Cup group section where you see a new look Hearts team that will almost certainly be an improvement on last season's rubbish.

[Coco]

Gauld, Souttar, and Armstrong?

I think Cathro was an under 14 coach at United.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Cathro is an utter dud and we will only have any success in spite of him rather than because of him. He has as much presence as Lord Lucan

[davemclaren]

Cathro is an utter dud and we will only have any success in spite of him rather than because of him. He has as much presence as Lord Lucan

I'll take success delivered any way.

[269miles]

Cathro is an utter dud and we will only have any success in spite of him rather than because of him. He has as much presence as Lord Lucan

IC is a fully qualified and experienced coach. Allegedly.

 

We need to understand why HMFC set up has made him a total disaster.

Personally, I didn't buy the hype on here pre-appointment.  Until or unless we can buy players that can play his way we are heading for a messy ending.  One way or another. 

 

He comes across as inflexible  in his thinking and driven by a self assurance that should make us wonder. 

 

He's not a dud but he shouldn't be at HMFC.  This is Scottish "football". I don't see anything about Cathro in a footballing sense that makes me think  he will succeed here. He's like a guy who has gone abroad and returned , messiah like , to bring the gospel of modern tactical thinking. If it doesn't work it won't be his fault - in his eyes. 

 

That's what scares me about Cathro. 

[Jammy T]

He is a coach that has done well in Portugal been taken to Valencia by his head coach and survived a coaching cull at Newcastle by a manager that has won the champions league

 

To question his coaching ability makes you look like a complete spanner, because amongst other things you are pitting yourself against Benitez FFS, a toon spanish team and a big English team.

 

Now head coach is different - but people on this thread seem to be getting rather easily confused, which knowning JKB is understandable.

 

As far as I can see he is wanting us to play closer to the level of Newcastle and Valencia than Hamilton.

 

I'm for this.

[Buffalo Bill]

 

He's not a dud but he shouldn't be at HMFC.  This is Scottish "football". I don't see anything about Cathro in a footballing sense that makes me think  he will succeed here. He's like a guy who has gone abroad and returned , messiah like , to bring the gospel of modern tactical thinking. If it doesn't work it won't be his fault - in his eyes. 

 

That's what scares me about Cathro. 

 

Did Cathro, at any point, claim he was "messiah like"? 

[Diadora Van Basten]

You realise we've released most of the squad right.. and have about 10 senior players left

Noring/Hamilton

 

Brandon/Smith Berra Souter/Hughes New left back

 

Novak Buaben/Beith

 

Cowie Djoum Walker

 

Isma/Johnson/Currie

[kingantti1874]

Noring/Hamilton

 

Brandon/Smith Berra Souter/Hughes New left back

 

Novak Buaben/Beith

 

Cowie Djoum Walker

 

Isma/Johnson/Currie

That team would be in relegation trouble.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

That team would be in relegation trouble.

Bottom half not relegated, but that won't be anything close to how strong we will be

[Diadora Van Basten]

That team would be in relegation trouble.

I forgot Martin as well.

 

What's the point of these players being at the club if you can't trust them to play?

 

Personally I think they would do better than you think.

[YMWrules]

Noring/Hamilton

 

Brandon/Smith Berra Souter/Hughes New left back

 

Novak Buaben/Beith

 

Cowie Djoum Walker

 

Isma/Johnson/Currie

When you see it like that you realise how utter shite we are at this moment in time,and to think we've let go another 6 Muppets just highlights how chronic our signings have been.

[Bazzas right boot]

Not happy unless we sign at least 8 shite left backs tbh. Cathro can gtf.

[Bazzas right boot]

That team would be in relegation trouble.

In the championship... very poor in areas and extremely light across the entire squad!

[kingantti1874]

I forgot Martin as well.

 

What's the point of these players being at the club if you can't trust them to play?

 

Personally I think they would do better than you think.

Well given since Cathro managed them to a stunning 12th place in the form league since he walked through the door and we've have had to ensure the worst run in the 143 year history of the club I think we've established beyond any doubt we cannot trust the existing combination of players and manager.

 

Something has to change, I'd start with Cathro but as has been pointed out that's not going to happen.. So he will need to build a new sauad

[Diadora Van Basten]

Well given since Cathro managed them to a stunning 12th place in the form league since he walked through the door and we've have had to ensure the worst run in the 143 year history of the club I think we've established beyond any doubt we cannot trust the existing combination of players and manager.

 

Something has to change, I'd start with Cathro but as has been pointed out that's not going to happen.. So he will need to build a new sauad

I think that would be a mistake one of the reasons we were so poor was because we used too many players last year.

 

Chelsea won the prem and used the least amount of players.

[buzzbomb]

Cathro may bring in a set of good players this summer, but I still don't think he's the man to lead them. I just don't think he has either the credibility, personality or presence to be a manager. You don't need all of these, but you need at least one.

[Debut 4]

I think that would be a mistake one of the reasons we were so poor was because we used too many players last year.

 

Chelsea won the prem and used the least amount of players.

Things like that hold up against the argument of rotation etc...

 

Obviously over the season you may encounter lengthy injury problems, suspensions , fatigue etc..but one thing in football that has always been the key is establishing your strongest 11 and make changes only when necessary.

 

It may be a different time but in 86 Hearts first team selection hardly changed. The rigours of football were just the same though and players were probably tougher(stupid in some eyes) because they'd play through impact injuries.

 

It become a fad to have rotation.

[kingantti1874]

I think that would be a mistake one of the reasons we were so poor was because we used too many players last year.

 

Chelsea won the prem and used the least amount of players.

Your taking the piss surely.. We should be aiming for 2nd..

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Your taking the piss surely.. We should be aiming for 2nd..

I am in total agreement. Get the players in.

[Nookie Bear]

Cathro may bring in a set of good players this summer, but I still don't think he's the man to lead them. I just don't think he has either the credibility, personality or presence to be a manager. You don't need all of these, but you need at least one.

This for me.

 

He may scrape us 4th place with a squad that a better manager would cruise 3rd.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

I'll tell you what will make a difference. A very good fitness coach. It's not a surprise the two fittest teams finished first and second

[Jammy T]

I'll tell you what will make a difference. A very good fitness coach. It's not a surprise the two fittest teams finished first and second

Did we replace the lad that went to MKD?

[Bowmans_Boot]

Did we replace the lad that went to MKD?

Could be wrong but isnt that the vacancy we recently advertised?

[Elias Henry Furst]

I'll tell you what will make a difference. A very good fitness coach. It's not a surprise the two fittest teams finished first and second

Celtics fitness levels today were outstanding.

[allystrachan]

There is someone new doing the warm ups recently but the fitness coach job was recently advertised. I think John hill was a big loss, heard a lot of good things about him & always thought the work he had the team doing looked fairly progressive. Would like to see someone bring in a really good strength & conditioning program for the players though.

I'm sure when cathro came in someone mentioned that he's not keen on the sports science side which sounded strange but maybe it is the case.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Could be wrong but isnt that the vacancy we recently advertised?

Yeah, no appointment I have seen.

 

To be fair Aberdeen put in a fair shift. Gave it everything.

 

Cathro may well have been poor to date but to win against them you can't be chasing the ball for 90 minutes. Playing a possession game is important

[Jammy T]

Fitness is so important (like supreme fitness) - it can make up a lot for being mediocre, if you can run that bit harder and faster than the rest of the shite in the SPL for the last 15 then you'll pick up more points.

 

Are we still doing triple sessions?

[mac]

As an Old Goat, IC reminds me very much of Chemical Ali in the Gulf War, he was always saying how well things were going when in fact they weren't :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Hassan_al-Majid

 

"Chemical Ali" was really "Comical Ali", except it's only us Jambo's that are not laughing, mair like greetin'  

[lost in space]

Yeah, no appointment I have seen.

 

To be fair Aberdeen put in a fair shift. Gave it everything.

 

Cathro may well have been poor to date but to win against them you can't be chasing the ball for 90 minutes. Playing a possession game is important

No, it doesn't have to be. Seems all "modern" coaches think so though. Surely there are alternatives eg getting balls in the box with a few forwards trying to score more goals than the other team.

AYE. I know, I'm too old......

[wavydavy]

Noring/Hamilton

 

Brandon/Smith Berra Souter/Hughes New left back

 

Novak Buaben/Beith

 

There is a absolutely no cover if and when any of the starting team get injured.

 

We definitely need more than 4 players and we should always be looking for quality

 

 

 

 

 

Cowie Djoum Walker

 

Isma/Johnson/Currie

[Jammy T]

As an Old Goat, IC reminds me very much of Chemical Ali in the Gulf War, he was always saying how well things were going when in fact they weren't : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Hassan_al-Majid

 

"Chemical Ali" was really "Comical Ali", except it's only us Jambo's that are not laughing, mair like greetin'

A really really shite analogy

 

Chemical / Comical Ali pretended nothing was wrong as tanks cut through Baghdad

 

Cathro has fronted up and said things aren't good enough and he needs to sort it out.

 

It's like completely the opposite....

[Muirhead]

If he came out and said we need 10 players our negotiation position is compromised right from the start. There will be quantity coming in so let's hope the quality accompanies it

 

Ps whoever commented on Celtic and Aberdeens fitness levels is spot on. if we haven't replaced our fitness coach that would be a worry as you don't play a pressing game or play with the movement off the ball he desires without fitness levels way beyond where we are at just now

[CJGJ]

If he came out and said we need 10 players our negotiation position is compromised right from the start. There will be quantity coming in so let's hope the quality accompanies it

 

Ps whoever commented on Celtic and Aberdeens fitness levels is spot on. if we haven't replaced our fitness coach that would be a worry as you don't play a pressing game or play with the movement off the ball he desires without fitness levels way beyond where we are at just now

That is just so wrong

 

We have all the facilities and more to check the players levels and we do.

 

If any player is not at the top level they and the club know it and it will not be the fitness coach who is to blame for a player not putting in a full shift

 

Celtic can appear to be fitter simply because the other clubs players have had to do more running to compete with them and are on the whole chasing the ball more. Towards the end of the match this can impact greatly as yesterdays winner showed.

[AtletiHearts]

(Im from Holland and i (26y) follow Hearts since the year of 2003.  )

 

Im surprise how fecked the transfer policy is of the last 2 years.

I mean, look to Abderdeen, a slighy bigger wage budget, can keep holding their players for a pretty long time. (Consodine, Reynolds, Jack, Hayes)

What the **** is wrong with Hearts?  They did very well in their first season after promotion.  A good mix between own youth players and free transfers.

 

Can someone tell me what happened?

 

 

 

And btw, why no look to youth teams of Ajax?  

[Muirhead]

That is just so wrong

 

We have all the facilities and more to check the players levels and we do.

 

If any player is not at the top level they and the club know it and it will not be the fitness coach who is to blame for a player not putting in a full shift

 

Celtic can appear to be fitter simply because the other clubs players have had to do more running to compete with them and are on the whole chasing the ball more. Towards the end of the match this can impact greatly as yesterdays winner showed.

I hope your right. It's well known that Brendan Rodgers has taken Celtics fitness to a new level. It's apparently the reason griffiths has been told he won't be first pick except when there's injuries as he wont change. It's also the reason why they have so much possession in the first place - they win it back sooner and they have better movement for the man in possession - all down to being fitter as referenced by Scott brown in the post match interview when he said he knew their fitness levels would show through at the end .

 

The way cathro wants us to play is forward thinking but fitness levels tend to be higher in the countries he has been used to working. You only have to listen to Ryan Frasers account of his transition from from Aberdeen to Brighton to see the gulf

[colinmaroon]

I hope your right. It's well known that Brendan Rodgers has taken Celtics fitness to a new level. It's apparently the reason griffiths has been told he won't be first pick except when there's injuries as he wont change. It's also the reason why they have so much possession in the first place - they win it back sooner and they have better movement for the man in possession - all down to being fitter as referenced by Scott brown in the post match interview when he said he knew their fitness levels would show through at the end .

 

The way cathro wants us to play is forward thinking but fitness levels tend to be higher in the countries he has been used to working. You only have to listen to Ryan Frasers account of his transition from from Aberdeen to Brighton to see the gulf

 

 

 

And ?30 million more than their competitors, at least, might have something to do with it as well. 

[269miles]

Did Cathro, at any point, claim he was "messiah like"? 

No , he didn't but then you knew that or you wouldn't have asked. But you would know just how moist this board was about  him - even before he was appointed. 

 

I'm sure my point is clear , if not,  move on. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

What is the definition of quality then?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

What is the definition of quality then?

A Tranmere reject that has scored 19 goals in 5 years apparently. But he could be the next Jamie Vardy according to some of the Jammy wearers.

[Buffalo Bill]

No , he didn't but then you knew that or you wouldn't have asked. But you would know just how moist this board was about  him - even before he was appointed. 

 

I'm sure my point is clear , if not,  move on. 

 

Your point was based on something you just made up and then tried to pass it off as some sort of evidence-based example.

 

 

I was just highlighting how ridiculous that was.

[Dia Liom]

What is the definition of quality then?

 

Could have a different definition as a noun but as an adjective it just means something that's good  

 

What's the definition of good? ...