Marine A

[Maroon Sailor]

Nailed it.

I'm another in the nailed it camp

[blondejamtart]

That's the point it was an execution no different to what the Taliban do.

So that makes the British Army no better than the Taliban if tolerated.

Execution or not, it was very different to what the Taliban do - and ISIS for that matter. Perhaps you should ask the family of the young Edinburgh soldier murdered by the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2011 exactly what they did to him...

[CollyWolly]

That's the point it was an execution no different to what the Taliban do.

So that makes the British Army no better than the Taliban if tolerated.

You don't see the difference between kidnapping innocent people (non combatants), keeping them prisoner, dressing them in a jump suit and beheading them several months or years later and finishing off an already mortally wounded insurgent who had been trying to kill you minutes before

[Maroon Sailor]

Execution or not, it was very different to what the Taliban do - and ISIS for that matter. Perhaps you should ask the family of the young Edinburgh soldier murdered by the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2011 exactly what they did to him...

Exactly

 

The guy broke the Geneva convention on a member of a barbaric regime but to compare Marine A to the Taliban is ridiculous.

[Riddley Walker]

Execution or not, it was very different to what the Taliban do - and ISIS for that matter. Perhaps you should ask the family of the young Edinburgh soldier murdered by the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2011 exactly what they did to him...

If I was that guy's poor parents I'd be asking the government why he was sent there in the first place.

[blondejamtart]

If I was that guy's poor parents I'd be asking the government why he was sent there in the first place.

That's an entirely different argument...

[Riddley Walker]

That's an entirely different argument...

 

It's straying off topic, I know. But at the same time our govt. sent him out there for nothing. They sent him to a country being run by fundamentalist psychopaths and they should be held accountable.

[aussieh]

His Mrs says he may return to the Marines.

[auldy19]

His Mrs says he may return to the Marines.

Not sure how that would work . He has a dishonourable discharge still and a manslaughter conviction !

[aussieh]

Not sure how that would work . He has a dishonourable discharge still and a manslaughter conviction !

I thought the same, but maybe she's been told different

I hope I don't hear any uproar when UK forces P.O.Ws are shot in the head from now on. Well that would be hypocritical.

[Maroon Sailor]

I hope I don't hear any uproar when UK forces P.O.Ws are shot in the head from now on. Well that would be hypocritical.

It was only a matter of time before you come out with shit like that - took you longer than I expected

[deesidejambo]

His Mrs says he may return to the Marines.

This is a farce. He murdered someone.

 

Then he claims he was bonkers to get off.

 

Now presumably he is not bonkers anymore so give him his gun back?

 

What a load of shite and an insult to those genuinely affected by mental illness.

[Adam Murray]

The trouble is with PTSD, like most mental illnesses, it just doesn't appear one morning, this guy may well have had it for a while, not sure how many tours of Afghan/Iraq or any other war zones he had done, or what he's seen and done, but it may well have been his actions that day that  finally pushed him over the edge and brought his condition to the fore, actions which he will have to live with for the rest of his day's.

[aussieh]

It was only a matter of time before you come out with shit like that - took you longer than I expected

Did it?

Listen, I have the most respect for the British Armed forces and fire brigade, than any other feckers on this planet, so don't make my opinion about Scottish Indy. I have family in the Marines and above, so please.

This was the Taliban, whose country we had invaded, not fecking ISIS.

Fwiw, I almost joined the Army at 15 when they tried to recruit me(obviously, I'd need to be 16)after my works experience in Penicuik, along with some Hibs fud back in 88. 2 guys fae about 100. But I secured an apprenticeship with the RDC so it fell through.

This was out and out Murder and now we've lost the high ground.

I might want independence, but I have nothing but love for the forces. He's now compromised his team mates.

[AlphonseCapone]

I just find people and the some papers calling him a hero very unsettling to be honest. Either;

 

He killed someone in cold blood and is a murderer or he was mentally ill and carried out a horrible act when he wasn't in a sound mind.

 

Argue the toss about which but either way the guy is not a hero for his actions. There might be a lot of heros in the armed forces but marine A certainly isn't one of them.

[OTT]

Very reluctant to judge him for what he did. No idea what the guy has saw in his time over there it also seems like the culmination of desensitisation.

[redm]

I just find people and the some papers calling him a hero very unsettling to be honest. Either;

 

He killed someone in cold blood and is a murderer or he was mentally ill and carried out a horrible act when he wasn't in a sound mind.

 

Argue the toss about which but either way the guy is not a hero for his actions. There might be a lot of heros in the armed forces but marine A certainly isn't one of them.

This is where I am. He either murdered the guy in cold blood or it's true that he has PTSD in which case we should be looking at the reasons why his experiences brought him to a place where he broke the Geneva Convention and killed an injured man. There's nothing heroic in either scenario, there's nothing to be proud of. Both represent a breakdown of the civilised standards we're supposed to uphold, and breach of human rights the soldiers are supposed to be fighting for in the first place.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I just find people and the some papers calling him a hero very unsettling to be honest. Either;

 

He killed someone in cold blood and is a murderer or he was mentally ill and carried out a horrible act when he wasn't in a sound mind.

 

Argue the toss about which but either way the guy is not a hero for his actions. There might be a lot of heros in the armed forces but marine A certainly isn't one of them.

The right wing press in this country have always gone down the "soldiers are heroes" line, regardless of context or what's in front of their eyes.

[redm]

The right wing press in this country have always gone down the "soldiers are heroes" line, regardless of context or what's in front of their eyes.

Very true, and it's not even just the media. You can't comment negatively (never mind criticise) anything military without some people becoming apoplectic with rage. Like they're immune from discussion because of the job they do. I guess that, in part, creates the type of environment in which they might be excused for incidents like this. It doesn't seem very healthy to me.

[Sten Guns]

I get flustered and my judgement is clouded after an argument over who was first at the checkout at Tesco.

 

I think it's massively naive, in fact I think it's stupidly ignorant, not to acknowledge that under the circumstances here that there's not a chance in hell this guys mental state or ability to make good decisions was anywhere close to normal.

[doctor jambo]

I would like the mental health charities to come out and speak in public.

 I feel this is stigmatising people with mental illness

After all the progress in getting rid of the old times when people were afraid of schizophrenics  - who were forever being linked to killings- and now we have this.

Presumably he is now "cured" and is safe to release?

that next time he argues with his wife he's not going to kill her?

having listened to the tapes it all seems like BS to me

"diminished responsibility!"

he had total responsibility to the end that he was organising the execution

[Rocco_Jambo]

I would like the mental health charities to come out and speak in public.

I feel this is stigmatising people with mental illness

After all the progress in getting rid of the old times when people were afraid of schizophrenics - who were forever being linked to killings- and now we have this.

Presumably he is now "cured" and is safe to release?

that next time he argues with his wife he's not going to kill her?

having listened to the tapes it all seems like BS to me

"diminished responsibility!"

he had total responsibility to the end that he was organising the execution

You realise this case didn't invent the partial defence of diminished responsibility?

 

Oh great you listened to the tapes and read a newspaper you must have far more knowledge about what happened than those who were listening to all the evidence at the two day appeal hearing.

 

What do you want the mental health charities to come out and say exactly?

[Rocco_Jambo]

This is where I am. He either murdered the guy in cold blood or it's true that he has PTSD in which case we should be looking at the reasons why his experiences brought him to a place where he broke the Geneva Convention and killed an injured man. There's nothing heroic in either scenario, there's nothing to be proud of. Both represent a breakdown of the civilised standards we're supposed to uphold, and breach of human rights the soldiers are supposed to be fighting for in the first place.

Nobody has said he has PTSD. It was concluded he had an adjustment disorder.

[doctor jambo]

You realise this case didn't invent the partial defence of diminished responsibility?

 

Oh great you listened to the tapes and read a newspaper you must have far more knowledge about what happened than those who were listening to all the evidence at the two day appeal hearing.

 

What do you want the mental health charities to come out and say exactly?

That this is unhelpful in breaking down the stigma surrounding mental health issues?

Its really not helpful

And the tapes are pretty damming- he sounded calm, controlled, unstressed, was laughing and joking and totally in control.

[redm]

Nobody has said he has PTSD. It was concluded he had an adjustment disorder.

 

Fair enough, but my same point stands though.

[Rocco_Jambo]

That this is unhelpful in breaking down the stigma surrounding mental health issues?

Its really not helpful

And the tapes are pretty damming- he sounded calm, controlled, unstressed, was laughing and joking and totally in control.

Unhelpful ffs? This is a guys life we are talking about. The law shouldn't care whether this does or doesn't create stigma from totally ignorant people.

 

So mental health charities should be campaigning to have the decades old legal concepts of diminished responsibility and insanity abolished "because they are unhelpful in breaking down mental health stigma"?

 

The audio of the video tapes, because they were videos although the video hasn't been released, ( for all you know the guy could have been walking around like Quasimodo, foaming at the mouth with no trousers on) were damning and presumably one of the reasons why he was convicted of murder in the first place but there was vast amounts of other evidence which led to the Criminal Case Reviews Comission and an appeal tribunal to conclude that the murder conviction was unsafe.

[southcap]

Lets be honest, put this in a civilian setting, you'd be looking at 30 years, even with the same mental health 'issues'.

[redm]

Lets be honest, put this in a civilian setting, you'd be looking at 30 years, even with the same mental health 'issues'.

 

In any other setting, even with mitigating factor of an adjustment disorder or similar condition, you're also looking at pretty much zero sympathy or mercy from the general public too.

[Adam Murray]

Not defending the guy here, what he done was wrong and he's paid the penalty for it.

It is though, pretty difficult to put it into any other setting, civilian or otherwise.

This is a guy who would have, for however long, had very minimal sleep, who goes out on patrol daily, with not only the possibility that he may walk on an ied, be subject to sniper fire, mortar fire, wondering if the on coming vehicle is a suicide bomber, wondering if the smiling local civilian is actually a spotter for the taliban, along with many other dangers you would encounter in a war zone.

So very difficult to compare it with any other setting, although I'm sure someone will be able to.

 

The almost hero worship/adulation that the armed forces receive these day's was not always the case, certainly through the 70's/80's the military were somewhat frowned upon by a lot of local communities who had a garrison near them. I suppose that all changed with technology and people could start to see these conflicts being played out in their living rooms, probably the Iranian Embassy siege and the Falklands Conflict were the first. Certainly the first and second Gulf wars, with young boys/men coming home in coffins, live on our screens, changed peoples perceptions of our Armed Forces. However, a lot of people I know within the forces, are uncomfortable with that kind of false hero worship.

[Sten Guns]

Lets be honest, put this in a civilian setting, you'd be looking at 30 years, even with the same mental health 'issues'.

And your point is???????

[CollyWolly]

I would like the mental health charities to come out and speak in public.

 I feel this is stigmatising people with mental illness

After all the progress in getting rid of the old times when people were afraid of schizophrenics  - who were forever being linked to killings- and now we have this.

Presumably he is now "cured" and is safe to release?

that next time he argues with his wife he's not going to kill her?

having listened to the tapes it all seems like BS to me

"diminished responsibility!"

he had total responsibility to the end that he was organising the execution

You've not read a single thing on the judgement in this case have you ? This case is nothing whatever to do with PTSD or long term mental health in the general populace. This case is about the mental state of a soldier who had just engaged in a firefight, with people trying to kill him and whether his judgement was temporarily impaired because of what he had gone through in the previous 20 minutes and the mental state he was in in the immediate aftermath. And also whether that impairment reduced his culpability. The court that found him guilty of murder didn't think he was impaired or that it didn't exclude him from full culpability, the appeal court did. Its as simple as that. Marine A is not mentally ill, nor has he claimed to be, nor is he making use of mental illness in his defence.

[Maroon Sailor]

Not defending the guy here, what he done was wrong and he's paid the penalty for it.

It is though, pretty difficult to put it into any other setting, civilian or otherwise.

This is a guy who would have, for however long, had very minimal sleep, who goes out on patrol daily, with not only the possibility that he may walk on an ied, be subject to sniper fire, mortar fire, wondering if the on coming vehicle is a suicide bomber, wondering if the smiling local civilian is actually a spotter for the taliban, along with many other dangers you would encounter in a war zone.

So very difficult to compare it with any other setting, although I'm sure someone will be able to.

 

The almost hero worship/adulation that the armed forces receive these day's was not always the case, certainly through the 70's/80's the military were somewhat frowned upon by a lot of local communities who had a garrison near them. I suppose that all changed with technology and people could start to see these conflicts being played out in their living rooms, probably the Iranian Embassy siege and the Falklands Conflict were the first. Certainly the first and second Gulf wars, with young boys/men coming home in coffins, live on our screens, changed peoples perceptions of our Armed Forces. However, a lot of people I know within the forces, are uncomfortable with that kind of false hero worship.

Excellent post

[southcap]

And your point is???????

That the downgrading of his crime is purely political.

[CollyWolly]

That the downgrading of his crime is purely political.

They haven't downgraded the crime. They have re-assed his level of culpability for the crime based on a disorder he had, allied with the traumatic circumstances he found himself in.

 

I imagine the 'political' preference would have been to bury the case completely at birth and quietly pension the fellah off.

[southcap]

They haven't downgraded the crime. They have re-assed his level of culpability based on a disorder he had, allied with the traumatic circumstances he found himself in.

 

I imagine the 'political' preference would have been to bury the case completely at birth and quietly pension the fellah off.

1. They did downgrade it. His murder conviction got changed to a lesser crime, ,manslaughter. That is a downgrade. It would appear significant time and resources have been spent trying to find any way to get in downgraded, they managed it.

2. Correct, it would have been. But see above, this is as good as they could have managed from a legal point of view.

 

Ergo, it's pretty political.

[redm]

You've not read a single thing on the judgement in this case have you ? This case is nothing whatever to do with PTSD or long term mental health in the general populace. This case is about the mental state of a soldier who had just engaged in a firefight, with people trying to kill him and whether his judgement was temporarily impaired because of what he had gone through in the previous 20 minutes and the mental state he was in in the immediate aftermath. And also whether that impairment reduced his culpability. The court that found him guilty of murder didn't think he was impaired or that it didn't exclude him from full culpability, the appeal court did. Its as simple as that. Marine A is not mentally ill, nor has he claimed to be, nor is he making use of mental illness in his defence.

 

I'm not as well read as you on the case but if this is the general sort of summary of the situation, can't the same apply in almost any scenario where a soldier is engaged in firefight at close quarters or whatever? As in, is this a common enough scenario for a defence of this type to be applied (with precedent) in the future? Or was there something unusual and unique about the circumstances in which he found himself?....in military rather than general terms, obviously.

[Rocco_Jambo]

Lets be honest, put this in a civilian setting, you'd be looking at 30 years, even with the same mental health 'issues'.

Manslaughter on a victim already fatally wounded who had already tried to kill the accused and his friends. In a civilian setting the accused doesn't even get a 7 year sentence.

 

30 years? Utterly clueless.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Lets be honest, put this in a civilian setting, you'd be looking at 30 years, even with the same mental health 'issues'.

Dearie me.

[Rocco_Jambo]

1. They did downgrade it. His murder conviction got changed to a lesser crime, ,manslaughter. That is a downgrade. It would appear significant time and resources have been spent trying to find any way to get in downgraded, they managed it.

2. Correct, it would have been. But see above, this is as good as they could have managed from a legal point of view.

 

Ergo, it's pretty political.

His conviction wasn't downgraded. His murder conviction was quashed then they decided separately whether it was appropriate to convict him of any other sentence which they had a legal basis to do so. They then decided to convict of manslaughter based on the evidence. These were two separate matters for the appeal court.

[Sten Guns]

I don't think Southcap grasps what's going on here.

 

So desperate to play up to his left wing stereotype.

[Sten Guns]

Does anyone kill another person while in a sound state of mind?

 

 

Every. Single. Day.

[Rocco_Jambo]

Does anyone kill another person while in a sound state of mind?

 

For me Man Slaughter should be for causing a death without the intention to kill, murder should be murder, the sentence can be adjusted accordingly as to the murderers' state of mind.

 

I accept that this is not the current legal situation.

Murder is murder and the sentence can't be adjusted accordingly because murder requires a mandatory life sentence. That's why there is voluntary manslaughter, with intent to kill, and involuntary manslaughter, that you refer to, without intent to kill.

[Rocco_Jambo]

And I think that is a cop out and murder should be murder, just my opinion.

Well your alternative is that you get people getting convicted of murder and getting 5 year sentences in cases where there has been extreme provocation or battered wife syndrome which completely dilutes what is recognised as the most heinous crime in most jurisdictions. I imagine there'd be a thread on this board every week with the heading "5(6,7) years for murder!!!!" in your world.

[CollyWolly]

1. They did downgrade it. His murder conviction got changed to a lesser crime, ,manslaughter. That is a downgrade. It would appear significant time and resources have been spent trying to find any way to get in downgraded, they managed it.

2. Correct, it would have been. But see above, this is as good as they could have managed from a legal point of view.

 

Ergo, it's pretty political.

The crime, the act he committed, is unchanged. He presented new evidence of a previously undiagnosed disorder, which his defence team suspected but HE HIMSELF refused to let them present until recently. Taken with the circumstances of danger he was in on a daily basis they quashed his murder conviction, which was ridiculous IMO and replaced it with a conviction for manslaughter, which is more fitting for what he did.

[Adam Murray]

It seems some on here, not all, but some of the usual suspects, are using this for their own agenda of 'Brit' bashing.

[CollyWolly]

I'm not as well read as you on the case but if this is the general sort of summary of the situation, can't the same apply in almost any scenario where a soldier is engaged in firefight at close quarters or whatever? As in, is this a common enough scenario for a defence of this type to be applied (with precedent) in the future? Or was there something unusual and unique about the circumstances in which he found himself?....in military rather than general terms, obviously.

He had an undiagnosed condition which was 'hidden' and didn't present itself in any way that might have been obvious. This is now accepted by the prosecution and was previously unknown, although his defence team suspected it, he refused to let them explore that path for fear of the stigma. I imagine the condition is fairly common amongst servicemen and women in a combat theatre. Add to that that he had lost colleagues and mentors a few weeks before, that he felt he wasn't getting the back up he needed from his superiors and that he had a narrow escape 4 weeks before the incident and you can see how his state of mind may have led to an error of judgement.

 

I don't think that very often, a wounded enemy is finished off at point blank range. If it does happen often then its kept pretty much under wraps and the only reason this one came to light IMO is that the video went viral for some reason and the language used is a bit callous to say the least.

 

Its a war situation, with people trying to actually kill you and being very capable of doing it.Its highly pressurised and being under such pressure daily for weeks on end must occasionally make your judgement go off.

[doctor jambo]

The crime, the act he committed, is unchanged. He presented new evidence of a previously undiagnosed disorder, which his defence team suspected but HE HIMSELF refused to let them present until recently. Taken with the circumstances of danger he was in on a daily basis they quashed his murder conviction, which was ridiculous IMO and replaced it with a conviction for manslaughter, which is more fitting for what he did.

I know, imagine a soldier being in  a postion of stress and danger.

at least our forces now know that when the danger passes, they can stop, chat, laugh and then execute defenceless prisoners because of the stress of their jobs and do a few years in sing-sing then out to a heroes welcome, caht show appearances, GMB with Holly and Phil (watch this space!) and probably many newspaper articles and so on.

Its good you are fine with that, but Im not

[CollyWolly]

I know, imagine a soldier being in  a postion of stress and danger.

at least our forces now know that when the danger passes, they can stop, chat, laugh and then execute defenceless prisoners because of the stress of their jobs and do a few years in sing-sing then out to a heroes welcome, caht show appearances, GMB with Holly and Phil (watch this space!) and probably many newspaper articles and so on.

Its good you are fine with that, but Im not

Well thank feck we have guys like him prepared to walk the fence and put their lives on the line and its not left to guys like you

[doctor jambo]

Well thank feck we have guys like him prepared to walk the fence and put their lives on the line and its not left to guys like you

Holy *&)% - you cannot mean that!

glad we have someone who executes unarmed , wounded POW's- aye very good!

 

We should also call it what it is - a war crime

[CollyWolly]

Holy *&)% - you cannot mean that!

glad we have someone who executes unarmed , wounded POW's- aye very good!

 

We should also call it what it is - a war crime

And he's been punished for it. Stop acting like we've got a bunch of murderous fecking cowboys out there gunslinging and drinkin whiskey and having a fecking jolly good time. He made an error of judgement in a highly stressful situation. That's all there is to it