Academies and tactics

[amadjambo]

Just listened to an interesting discussion on English academy football on 5 Live.

 

They were talking about how kids are taught to always play out from the back regardless of the situation, and how this often means young players aren't ready to make the step up to first team football.

 

Coupled with this is the total focus on developing skill at the expense of developing the physical aspects of the

game. Young players are often not able to compete physically and can find themselves bullied out of games too easily.

 

The point they were making is that there is nothing wrong with playing out from the back, and that it should be actively encouraged, in the right situations. But when a team presses you high up the park you have to be able to adapt and go long. Simply, by having this variety in your game you keep the opponent guessing and this create space for you to play out.

 

I'd liken it to American football. If a team is one dimensional it is extremely easy to defend against. You need a strong running game to open the field up for your passing game.

 

Yes, if you've got Tom Brady at QB you can get away with being one dimensional, just as a team like Barca can get away with playing pure football, but mere mortals aren't on that level.

 

Anyway, found the discussion interesting and could see similarities with what they were saying and how Hearts play.

[Beast Boy]

Just listened to an interesting discussion on English academy football on 5 Live.

 

They were talking about how kids are taught to always play out from the back regardless of the situation, and how this often means young players aren't ready to make the step up to first team football.

 

Coupled with this is the total focus on developing skill at the expense of developing the physical aspects of the

game. Young players are often not able to compete physically and can find themselves bullied out of games too easily.

 

The point they were making is that there is nothing wrong with playing out from the back, and that it should be actively encouraged, in the right situations. But when a team presses you high up the park you have to be able to adapt and go long. Simply, by having this variety in your game you keep the opponent guessing and this create space for you to play out.

 

I'd liken it to American football. If a team is one dimensional it is extremely easy to defend against. You need a strong running game to open the field up for your passing game.

 

Yes, if you've got Tom Brady at QB you can get away with being one dimensional, just as a team like Barca can get away with playing pure football, but mere mortals aren't on that level.

 

Anyway, found the discussion interesting and could see similarities with what they were saying and how Hearts play.

It is an interesting discussion. Re Hearts:

 

In the last twenty years I seen us go back and forward on this in discussions.

 

"JJ's teams can't handle the physicality of the Old Firm players - GTF Jefferies!"

 

"We produce too many small weak players - Murray GTF!"

 

"Levein doesn't like small players, he is only interested in big physical players - Levein GTF!"

 

Round and round we go...

[Mikey1874]

Though fitness and gym working builds strength.

[amadjambo]

Though fitness and gym working builds strength.

They were not just talking about the actual physical attributes of the players, but their ability to tackle properly, and their ability to outmuscle opponents. It is something that we clearly identified as a development need with Souttar and he's made great improvements on that front already.

[Bauld]

When it comes to playing it from the back I think alot of it comes down to a players intelligence.

 

When you are near your own goal you use it before you lose it. Get the ball, lift the head, is there a pass?

 

If there is a pass play the ball if there isn't clear the lines.

 

Football is a mental game and there are no tactics that cover a football match second by second. A player lives and dies by his brains.

[amadjambo]

When it comes to playing it from the back I think alot of it comes down to a players intelligence.

 

When you are near your own goal you use it before you lose it. Get the ball, lift the head, is there a pass?

 

If there is a pass play the ball if there isn't clear the lines.

 

Football is a mental game and there are no tactics that cover a football match second by second. A player lives and dies by his brains.

Yep. Comes down to decision making. Knowing when it is appropriate to play out and when to go long. Exactly what the discussion was saying isn't developed in young players. I don't watch youth football so don't have first hand knowledge, but found the discussion interesting.

 

It is clear that Paterson is a player that clearly relishes the physical battles as well as having an abundance of skill and ability. But he's in the minority in the country. Tierney is another that comes to mind.

[Beast Boy]

When it comes to playing it from the back I think alot of it comes down to a players intelligence.

 

When you are near your own goal you use it before you lose it. Get the ball, lift the head, is there a pass?

 

If there is a pass play the ball if there isn't clear the lines.

 

Football is a mental game and there are no tactics that cover a football match second by second. A player lives and dies by his brains.

Indeed. Watching Big Zal, Mrowiek and Webster passing it around the back was enough to give someone who already had palpitations from Jamie MacDonald a full on heart attack.

[Mikey1874]

They were not just talking about the actual physical attributes of the players, but their ability to tackle properly, and their ability to outmuscle opponents. It is something that we clearly identified as a development need with Souttar and he's made great improvements on that front already.

Looking at Chris Hamilton our promising young centre half a couple of weeks ago for U20s although he is small (too small I'd say just now aged 15) he seemed strong and brave and while mostly relying on good positioning he also made a couple of really strong challenges on players at least 4/5 years older.

 

He himself talked about the need to be strong physically in an interview while on Scotland duty recently.

[amadjambo]

Looking at Chris Hamilton a couple of weeks ago although he is small (too small I'd say just now aged 15) he seemed strong and brave and while mostly relying on good positioning he also made a couple of really strong challenges.

This is where I think having Levein on board will reap rewards in the future. Levein will be expecting us to develop strong players, and if we can match that will high skill levels and good decision making we'll bring through a lot of top players. It's going to take time though.

[centremidjambo]

This is where I think having Levein on board will reap rewards in the future. Levein will be expecting us to develop strong players, and if we can match that will high skill levels and good decision making we'll bring through a lot of top players. It's going to take time though.

I agree - it will take patience but we have talent.

 

 

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[The Treasurer]

The trouble is that people mistake "physically strong" with being big lumps that kick anything that moves.

We just need to look back at the home match v Spurs to see that being strong doesn't need to come at the expense of skill and footballing ability.

Defoe was a classic example in that match, not the biggest player on the park but he had the strength to hold up the ball and brush off challenges from bigger opponents.

Then you had the likes of Bale who is not only built like a brick shit-house but also had a huge amount of ability as well, which is the reason he has become one of the top players in the world

[centremidjambo]

However in the modern day game part of the attributes is now being athletic - needs mix I guess of technical v size and athleticism. The lad Henderson coming through the under 17's is exciting as he is quick and skilful and can score goals - wouldn't want him to be too bulky.

 

 

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[allymac35]

If you watcvh Hearts Academy teams they all play out for the back, the keeper is encourage dnot to kick the ball but instead play it to one of the defenders\midfield players so they can build the game through the phases. I have to tell you honestly, sometimes when you are watching it and especially when they concede a goal from this it makes you wonder why. I suppose in the modern game you need to be a football player not just someone who plays football and by that I mean someone who can see the game, can take the ball under pressure, demands the ball under pressure, see's threats, moves the ball quickly, knows their next move, encourages movement of players off the ball.

 

Sometimes we get caught up in the "win" too much and forget what the club are trying to do with these players and that is develop them for 1st team football. Personally I liek watching them play football and seeing the changes they go through in the various stages and it then becomes  areal pleasure to watch them. A lot of academied focusse don the result, wont play a game if they dont have their best players available, whereas Hearts will never call a game off, if needs be they move players up from younger age groups never bring players down.

 

Hopefully the changes being planned by Malky MacKay will further enforce the development of players against the result, stop older players being played down and no games being cancelled because you have a couple of players playing up or best players injured...if you dont have faith in your players then why are they there?

[kylelauren01]

If you watcvh Hearts Academy teams they all play out for the back, the keeper is encourage dnot to kick the ball but instead play it to one of the defenders\midfield players so they can build the game through the phases. I have to tell you honestly, sometimes when you are watching it and especially when they concede a goal from this it makes you wonder why. I suppose in the modern game you need to be a football player not just someone who plays football and by that I mean someone who can see the game, can take the ball under pressure, demands the ball under pressure, see's threats, moves the ball quickly, knows their next move, encourages movement of players off the ball.

 

Sometimes we get caught up in the "win" too much and forget what the club are trying to do with these players and that is develop them for 1st team football. Personally I liek watching them play football and seeing the changes they go through in the various stages and it then becomes areal pleasure to watch them. A lot of academied focusse don the result, wont play a game if they dont have their best players available, whereas Hearts will never call a game off, if needs be they move players up from younger age groups never bring players down.

 

Hopefully the changes being planned by Malky MacKay will further enforce the development of players against the result, stop older players being played down and no games being cancelled because you have a couple of players playing up or best players injured...if you dont have faith in your players then why are they there?

Why would Malky McKay be against playing kids down an age in the right circumstances? An example is a boy born in November/December, loads of ability but struggling against the physicality of the boys born earlier in the year and better developed. Do you watch that boy struggle, give him the custard pie or let him play with the younger year group - some of who might only he a month or two younger? I know what I'd do if it meant developing that kid. Liam Smith is an example of this, great prospect, all the ability but kept back at 15's for a season instead of going up to 17's where the physical gulf was too big - worked out all right there but you're suggesting that shouldn't happen.

[OTT]

It is an interesting discussion. Re Hearts:

 

In the last twenty years I seen us go back and forward on this in discussions.

 

"JJ's teams can't handle the physicality of the Old Firm players - GTF Jefferies!"

 

"We produce too many small weak players - Murray GTF!"

 

"Levein doesn't like small players, he is only interested in big physical players - Levein GTF!"

 

Round and round we go...

 

I think Levein is correct with the 'big physical players' in terms of trying to produce this at academy level. Did Neilson not highlight it against Man city/ Everton friendlies? Their players were all ****ing units and our only player with decent physicality was Paterson?

 

If we can start to produce big strong physical players with a degree of technical ability we could be onto something.

 

(To clarify I'm not suggesting we only sign 6ft 5in huddies, I'm saying to make sure the players are of a strong physical build)

[Bellion]

I think Levein is correct with the 'big physical players' in terms of trying to produce this at academy level. Did Neilson not highlight it against Man city/ Everton friendlies? Their players were all ******* units and our only player with decent physicality was Paterson?

 

If we can start to produce big strong physical players with a degree of technical ability we could be onto something.

 

(To clarify I'm not suggesting we only sign 6ft 5in huddies, I'm saying to make sure the players are of a strong physical build)

 

Guys like Paterson will always be the exception rather than the rule, so I hope they do start looking more at developing everyone's physical capability. Obviously not everyone will grow into a unit but surely a lot of it can be managed. There was a profile of Ryan Fraser recently where he spoke about the changes he'd made to his lifestyle & clearly it's made a difference to him.

 

There does seem to be a marked difference in England. I live here and watch a fair number of lower league games, and even the 'small' players are really powerfully built compared to those in the SPL. At Hearts, Nicholson, in particular, still looks like he can be shoved off the ball too easily sometimes.

 

It sometimes seems like Scotland still has a thing about big guys v wee guys and the need to be one or the other. Probably because there are teams in Scotland full of big lumps, so there are loads of negative associations with being "physical". 

[allymac35]

Why would Malky McKay be against playing kids down an age in the right circumstances? An example is a boy born in November/December, loads of ability but struggling against the physicality of the boys born earlier in the year and better developed. Do you watch that boy struggle, give him the custard pie or let him play with the younger year group - some of who might only he a month or two younger? I know what I'd do if it meant developing that kid. Liam Smith is an example of this, great prospect, all the ability but kept back at 15's for a season instead of going up to 17's where the physical gulf was too big - worked out all right there but you're suggesting that shouldn't happen.

So the boy whom is struggling at his own age group goes down a year and he becomes one of the older, bigger , stronger players. The coaches at the top clubs understand players growth, development and they are aware that the game isn't dependant on your size or physicality.

 

If the player has ability that is what is noticed, irrespective of his stature, not how far down the line his physical development is. Hearts do testing on the boys, they can tell you pretty accurately when a player is due a growth spurt etc so all of this is taken into consideration when they assess players development.

 

So under what circumstances is it aceptable to play a boy down, when he is struglging at his own age? until he takes a growth spurt, when playing down becomes too easy, when the coaches dont think the player is going to have what it takes...why cant these decisions be made at his own age group? Also when you bring  a player down you are then taking that place away from a younger player, so are you then affecting his development, is he being punished....

 

As for the custard pie statement that is just stupid. This is not equal gametime, pays your subs football, this is clubs trying to get the very best they can. If the development of young players changes as MacKay has said then size\physique doesnt become the driver, ability does. Is there any reason why a player cant come out of pro youth, go back to boys club and then come back again, I have seen it done. I understand your line regarding birthday and I watch a boy who plays regularly for Hearts 17's/20's who was born in December and he doesnt look out of his depth against full time players.

 

Hearts have a track record of pushing players forward, playing against players bigger, stronger than them and they expect the players to adapt, surely that is a better option. Hearts 17's played a game earlier this season where a team brought 4 players down from their 20's because they HAD to win the game, they didnt, the young boys stood up, in fact the 5 u15's who played that day were excellent, they were smaller, slower, not as physically strong but they played the way they had been taught...that has to benefit those players more than it did the older players who had come down for  that game.

 

Some clubs abuse the system by playing players down to ensure they get a result and unless a player is recovering form a bad injury then they should never be playiong down. This is why I like the idea of the Project Brave reserves\youth team league.  Players competing against each other, that benefits both young and older players. I also like the Summer football\Futsal plans as this will ensure the kids develop as technical football players and the introduction of an u18's age group all of which will help the younger players  by introducing another level. The step 15's to 17's is too big as is 17's to 20's but adding in an extra year will benefit all players.

[Thomaso]

I think Levein is correct with the 'big physical players' in terms of trying to produce this at academy level. Did Neilson not highlight it against Man city/ Everton friendlies? Their players were all ******* units and our only player with decent physicality was Paterson?

 

If we can start to produce big strong physical players with a degree of technical ability we could be onto something.

 

(To clarify I'm not suggesting we only sign 6ft 5in huddies, I'm saying to make sure the players are of a strong physical build)

 

Robbo, Colquohoun, Flogel, Cameron, McCann, Walker....all giants.

[OTT]

Robbo, Colquohoun, Flogel, Cameron, McCann, Walker....all giants.

 

Haha , I'm talking about physical build, look at Messi or Maradona thighs like tree trunks and the result is its very hard to push them off the ball. Contrast that with our players like Nicholson, Walker or King when they come up against physicality - they don't do well.

 

Someone previously mentioned Ryan Fraser who is probably the best example, 5ft 4 and holding his own in the EPL because he's treated his diet and physical build seriously. Something which has likely been drummed into him by the Bournemouth academy. We can't say the same with our own players (Although I think thats kinda changed a bit recently).

 

I think if this is what Levein is going for in the academy then its a good sign of whats to come.

[centremidjambo]

Great chat here and an ongoing debate. Fact is smaller players still need to have core strength and know how to use whatever strength they have positively in terms of body shape and positioning. Playing down a year is a cop out and Hearts have it right in doing the opposite. That's the best way to learn how to compete and use your strengths.

 

Allymac mentioned the lad in the 17's Leonard who has a late birthday. He is pound for pound probably the best under 16 player we have as suggested - he is slight and small but seeing him play for 20's he is clever, sharp, great football brain etc. He makes others around him look good by always being available.

 

It's all about balance but the smaller players still need to have core strength.

 

 

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[bobskeldon]

I remember coaching a very good  U18 side who were encouraged to play from the back almost all the time which at times included the keeper dropping the ball in the six yard box for a very good, ball playing sweeper to start the play! I took this player up to Tannadice one night to play for Raith Rovers reserves against Dundee Utd, after only a few minutes, the goalkeeper had the ball and as all the defenders were ushered up the park, our player checked his run to go back and get the ball from the goalie in the box...very experienced centre half asked him what he was doing, very talented and confident player said "I'm going to get the ball"...are you ****

the centre half said "get yourself up the f****n park now"!

 

Sounds a bit like some of the fans who sit around me!!!!

[tweegy]

Great chat here and an ongoing debate. Fact is smaller players still need to have core strength and know how to use whatever strength they have positively in terms of body shape and positioning. Playing down a year is a cop out and Hearts have it right in doing the opposite. That's the best way to learn how to compete and use your strengths.

 

Allymac mentioned the lad in the 17's Leonard who has a late birthday. He is pound for pound probably the best under 16 player we have as suggested - he is slight and small but seeing him play for 20's he is clever, sharp, great football brain etc. He makes others around him look good by always being available.

 

It's all about balance but the smaller players still need to have core strength.

 

 

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I've mentioned it before, I think the way that NZ youth rugby is operated could be worth looking at although it is much more important in rugby than football.

 

They organise youth competition on a weight basis rather than age. So if you are a physically developed player for your age, you can't use this to your advantage and just run over smaller players. You have to develop your skillset to succeed. You end up with physical players with a good skillset. Seems to work for the allblacks.

[amadjambo]

What did we have last night?

 

Pass from the Gk to a defender or CM, who them pass it slowly among themselves with no purpose, no creativity, no tempo and no ideas. We pass for the sake of passing. We don't even make the opposition run to tire them out. It is utterly pointless.

 

Possession football isn't about keeping possession for the sake of it, it's about using the ball effectively.