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1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

Hi jake, you need to stop obsessing about what other people think of you.

Then why do you suggest I grow up when I post facts ?

 

It's a very silly point to make.

 

Just so you remember which prediction did Karl Marx make about capitalism that has not came to fruition.

 

 

 

Take your time and try not to bubble

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Back on topic, here's a good example of Donny's complete inability to pick half useful people for jobs.

 

The Atlantic: The Negligent Nomination of Ronny Jackson

 

Trump himself has quite limited ability, and a complete lack of understanding of the government and his role in it, and that reflects itself in the inept and inappropriate selections he makes for jobs in his administration - when he bothers to try filling jobs at all.

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Watt-Zeefuik

I'm still waiting for nibs reaction to the news that Trump wants back into the TPP.

 

Oh, and I was wondering when The Storm was going to make an appearance here. (http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/12/qanon-4chan-the-storm-conspiracy-explained.html)

 

Meanwhile Pruitt is dismantling all of the US's environmental protections, ICE is routinely splitting up young children from their parents and conducting illegal, warrentless raids, Zinke is auctioning off public lands for pennies to fossil fuel developers, the police are starving a 61-year old woman who's just trying to get fair value for her land, and Trump has radically accelerated the bombing in the middle east, but jake is still utterly obsessed with Obama.

 

Oh, and I suppose there is kind of such a thing as the "deep state" but it's generally called the civil service bureaucracy and yes, they have agendas, but it's not some broad conspiracy -- they're all looking out for their own little fifedoms, just like everywhere.

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Bridge of Djoum
8 hours ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

I too would be big on hearing an answer to this.

What we are seeing now is classic Nibbles. When challenged on his utter garbage and he has no answer, he goes deep, deeper than an Ohio class sub. He'll re-surface in a few days on a different topic whilst completely ignoring what went before, then when challenged again, will post a few quotes and videos and claim to know shit that would blow our minds.

 

Oh, and the American people will know.

 

And we will laugh.

 

 

 

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Joey J J Jr Shabadoo
4 hours ago, New York Fleapit said:

What we are seeing now is classic Nibbles. When challenged on his utter garbage and he has no answer, he goes deep, deeper than an Ohio class sub. He'll re-surface in a few days on a different topic whilst completely ignoring what went before, then when challenged again, will post a few quotes and videos and claim to know shit that would blow our minds.

 

Oh, and the American people will know.

 

And we will laugh.

 

 

 

He's probably comatose through excessive alcohol intake. 

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Francis Albert

The "deep state" is an annoying term but the idea that something like it doesn't exist or is something new is nonsense. I am reading "The Georgetown Set" a book about the first cold war which started as soon as WW2 ended and lasted until the collapse of the soviet empire and beyond.

If the deep state comprises people including state agencies operating, often illegally,domestically and abroad, without the knowledge of not just the public but elected representatives and other branches of the state, and the press and other media colluding with such activities, then it is all there in the land of the free. And it would be naive to assume it does not continue and may with modern technology be even more pervasive.

I would certainly not dismiss it as "just civil service bureaucracy"

Edited by Francis Albert
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1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

The "deep state" is an annoying term but the idea that something like it doesn't exist or is something new is nonsense. I am reading "The Georgetown Set" a book about the first cold war which started as soon as WW2 ended and lasted until the collapse of the soviet empire and beyond.

If the deep state comprises people including state agencies operating, often illegally,domestically and abroad, without the knowledge of not just the public but elected representatives and other branches of the state, and the press and other media colluding with such activities, then it is all there in the land of the free. And it would be naive to assume it does not continue and may with modern technology be even more pervasive.

I would certainly not dismiss it as "just civil service bureaucracy"

 

Eisenhower spoke of the military-industrial complex, which could be an example of what you have said above.

 

If you haven't seen it, then I'd thoroughly recommend this film.  Personally, I think it's outstanding!

 

 

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I sure it seems misjudged the White House doctor, I thought or opined from what I saw and heard from him that he was a very competent and quite a nice guy.  Well spoken and professional.

 

Now I hear that on being nominated to take charge of the VA, he is a drunk, hands out  prescription drugs in such volume tht he is known to insiders as the Candy Man, is rude to underlings, and whilst on a road trip with President Obama, had to be removed from a hotel corridor where whilst drunk was banging on a womans door demanding to be allowed in. His selection board has been delayed.

 

Meanwhile the EPA Secretary Pruitt is spending tax payers money like a man with five arms, Trump has not removed him, what a carry on, its like reading a comic novel.

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Watt-Zeefuik
6 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The "deep state" is an annoying term but the idea that something like it doesn't exist or is something new is nonsense. I am reading "The Georgetown Set" a book about the first cold war which started as soon as WW2 ended and lasted until the collapse of the soviet empire and beyond.

If the deep state comprises people including state agencies operating, often illegally,domestically and abroad, without the knowledge of not just the public but elected representatives and other branches of the state, and the press and other media colluding with such activities, then it is all there in the land of the free. And it would be naive to assume it does not continue and may with modern technology be even more pervasive.

I would certainly not dismiss it as "just civil service bureaucracy"

 

The civil service bureaucracy can be fairly insidious. All of Trump's posturing aside, Comey and McCabe were clearly making a mess of it at the FBI. Snowden showed the NSA's hand, and I hopefully don't need to go into the CIA's problems. The Department of Agriculture has had to settle repeated suits for institutional racism and playing favorites, and it's clear that basically the entire EPA staff is at war with its director (and in that case good on them, he's corrupt and usurious to the core).

 

I've heard folks who are close to the government say things like, the real people who run the government are a bunch of GS-23s to GS-25s (basically meaning high-level civil service designations) who run big agencies or offices within the executive. They're there for decades, whereas the President and Congress roll over frequently. If the politicos pass something they like, they work hard to get it done. If they pass something they don't like, they have drawers, and the experienced civil servants have a hundred ways to legally drag their feet until Congress either changes hands or decides to move on to something else.

 

IMO sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. The politicos sometimes pass terrible things, but sometimes the bureaucracy is just self-serving and corrupt. But this isn't anything new from the last 100 years, it's just the way a government the size of the US Federal works.

 

What's nonsense is that all these folks meet in secret to coordinate a shadowy plot against everyone. No, they just rule their own roosts, which can be quite powerful.

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niblick1874
On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 15:37, niblick1874 said:

The American people saw right through the TPP and anyone that was for it (Obama and many more). They were and are living in reality. They are not falling for the lies.

 

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 17:44, Maple Leaf said:

 

Not so.  The Trump administration has declared that it is reconsidering its previous decision to withdraw from TPP, having received considerable push-back from some American lawmakers. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/12/politics/trump-tpp-reconsidering/index.html

 

Like most agreements, there are positives as well as negatives to TPP.  One of the biggest bees in Trump's bonnet at the moment is USA's massive trade deficit with China, and it was precisely to combat China's unfair trade practices that TPP was created.  Trump might have to reverse his previous decision.

 

 

Not so?

 

I did not say that they would not see through Trump if he brought back the TPP with any of it's anti democracy inclusions in tact. What do you mean by not so? You took something I said and turned it into something I did not say and the usual performing seals joined in. 

 

Just for those that may have missed it. I am not a Trump supporter. The jury is out and always will be where he is concerned. 

 

I have never been and never will be right wing. I have not been left wing since seeing, in the mid70s, what they were becoming (through astroturfing) and now are. I am against all professional politicians as they are used as cover for the deep state.  

 

 

12 hours ago, Ugly American said:

I'm still waiting for nibs reaction to the news that Trump wants back into the TPP.

 

 

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niblick1874
On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 21:02, New York Fleapit said:

You always purport to speak for the ''American people''. What gives you that authority and how come every American I speak to holds a view quite different to yours?

 

Please, clear and direct answers only.

 

21 hours ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

I too would be big on hearing an answer to this.

 

7 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

He's probably comatose through excessive alcohol intake. 

 

 

http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/scoreboard-monday-april-23/362803

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=performing+seals&docid=608048370758058813&mid=8DF6CF427E35753F43338DF6CF427E35753F4333&view=detail&FORM=VIREHTnd

Edited by niblick1874
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28 minutes ago, niblick1874 said:

 

Someone asks you where you get your authority to speak on behalf of the American people, and that's your answer?

 

To use a term that you appear to like ... you're at it!

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Unknown user
1 minute ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Someone asks you where you get your authority to speak on behalf of the American people, and that's your answer?

 

To use a term that you appear to like ... you're at it!

I find it hard to believe people still engage this guy TBH!

Christ, we can hardly ever find concensus among a few thousand kickbackers, but here's what Americans think!

:facepalm:

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Bindy Badgy

The thread would be a lot more interesting if everyone just ignored him.

 

It would save having to skim past all of the posts in which people quote him.

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SpruceBringsteen
39 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I find it hard to believe people still engage this guy TBH!

Christ, we can hardly ever find concensus among a few thousand kickbackers, but here's what Americans think!

:facepalm:

 

Hence my interest. In my extensive experience you could stick four Yanks at a table and ask them to agree on the colour of the sky and get four different answers.

 

(Although because I live in a state that values education above waving confederate flags and pumping roadkill, it's a near 100% consensus that the President is a fatuous ****ing simpleton.)

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Francis Albert
2 hours ago, Ugly American said:

 

The civil service bureaucracy can be fairly insidious. All of Trump's posturing aside, Comey and McCabe were clearly making a mess of it at the FBI. Snowden showed the NSA's hand, and I hopefully don't need to go into the CIA's problems. The Department of Agriculture has had to settle repeated suits for institutional racism and playing favorites, and it's clear that basically the entire EPA staff is at war with its director (and in that case good on them, he's corrupt and usurious to the core).

 

I've heard folks who are close to the government say things like, the real people who run the government are a bunch of GS-23s to GS-25s (basically meaning high-level civil service designations) who run big agencies or offices within the executive. They're there for decades, whereas the President and Congress roll over frequently. If the politicos pass something they like, they work hard to get it done. If they pass something they don't like, they have drawers, and the experienced civil servants have a hundred ways to legally drag their feet until Congress either changes hands or decides to move on to something else.

 

IMO sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. The politicos sometimes pass terrible things, but sometimes the bureaucracy is just self-serving and corrupt. But this isn't anything new from the last 100 years, it's just the way a government the size of the US Federal works.

 

What's nonsense is that all these folks meet in secret to coordinate a shadowy plot against everyone. No, they just rule their own roosts, which can be quite powerful.

I agree with the last sentence - there isn't some huge conspiracy with tentacles reaching everywhere that effectively runs America, if that is the definition of "deep state". But I suspect (iknow would not be too strong a word) some of those in the bureaucracies refer to do collude where interests coincide or compliment each other and that collusion sometimes extends beyond the bureaucracies to other powers including for example the media and those who fund American parties and Congressmen. Just because there are conspiracy theorists doesn't mean there aren't conspiracies.

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Francis Albert
13 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

Hence my interest. In my extensive experience you could stick four Yanks at a table and ask them to agree on the colour of the sky and get four different answers.

 

(Although because I live in a state that values education above waving confederate flags and pumping roadkill, it's a near 100% consensus that the President is a fatuous ****ing simpleton.)

In the circles in which you move maybe, but in fact the fatuous ****ing simpleton took 41% of the vote in Connecticut to a hardly overwhelming 55% for Hillary.

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shaun.lawson
6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

In the circles in which you move maybe, but in fact the fatuous ****ing simpleton took 41% of the vote in Connecticut to a hardly overwhelming 55% for Hillary.

 

Yet many of those 41% will still have regarded Trump as a fatuous ****ing simpleton. It was an election between, by far, the two most unpopular, loathed candidates since records began, after all.

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Francis Albert
1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Yet many of those 41% will still have regarded Trump as a fatuous ****ing simpleton. It was an election between, by far, the two most unpopular, loathed candidates since records began, after all.

Since you rightly call people up for making wild statements without substantiation I assume you can back that up.

 

Even if you can, it remains true that in  a state where apparently "education is highly valued" 41% voted for a fatuous ****ing simpletion to be president.

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Bindy Badgy
8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Since you rightly call people up for making wild statements without substantiation I assume you can back that up.

 

Even if you can, it remains true that in  a state where apparently "education is highly valued" 41% voted for a fatuous ****ing simpletion to be president.

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-distaste-for-both-trump-and-clinton-is-record-breaking/

 

Quote

Clinton’s average “strongly unfavorable” rating in probability sample polls from late March to late April, 37 percent, is about 5 percentage points higher than the previous high between 19803 and 2012. Trump, though, is on another planet. Trump’s average “strongly unfavorable” rating, 53 percent, is 20 percentage points higher than every candidate’s rating besides Clinton’s. Trump is less disliked than David Duke was when Duke ran for the presidency in 1992, but Duke never came close to winning the nomination. In fact, I’ve seen never anything like Trump’s numbers heading into a general election for someone who is supposed to be competitive.

 

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Bridge of Djoum
2 hours ago, niblick1874 said:

'kin ell.

 

Much you pay for the gear you're on? That stuff has you wired the wrong way, pal. 

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Bridge of Djoum
46 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

Hence my interest. In my extensive experience you could stick four Yanks at a table and ask them to agree on the colour of the sky and get four different answers.

 

(Although because I live in a state that values education above waving confederate flags and pumping roadkill, it's a near 100% consensus that the President is a fatuous ****ing simpleton.)

CT. that ****** place I have to drive through to get to Cape Cod. Seriously, that stretch of road around the RBS building is a nightmare for about 15 miles. 

 

Where are you?

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Bridge of Djoum
26 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Yet many of those 41% will still have regarded Trump as a fatuous ****ing simpleton. It was an election between, by far, the two most unpopular, loathed candidates since records began, after all.

Indeed. 

 

Warming to you, Shaun.

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SpruceBringsteen
6 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

CT. that ****** place I have to drive through to get to Cape Cod. Seriously, that stretch of road around the RBS building is a nightmare for about 15 miles. 

 

Where are you?

 

I'm in Bristol, so about central as it gets. I have noticed the roads across the state are "adequate" at best, hence my trips to NY are taken by train. :laugh:

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Bridge of Djoum
4 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

I'm in Bristol, so about central as it gets. I have noticed the roads across the state are "adequate" at best, hence my trips to NY are taken by train. :laugh:

Roads really are shocking around there. 

 

I love Amtrak on the NE corridor. 

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Bridge of Djoum
14 hours ago, New York Fleapit said:

What we are seeing now is classic Nibbles. When challenged on his utter garbage and he has no answer, he goes deep, deeper than an Ohio class sub. He'll re-surface in a few days on a different topic whilst completely ignoring what went before, then when challenged again, will post a few quotes and videos and claim to know shit that would blow our minds.

 

Oh, and the American people will know.

 

And we will laugh.

 

 

 

I'm a ******* prophet.

 

Kneel, serfs.

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Since you rightly call people up for making wild statements without substantiation I assume you can back that up.

 

Even if you can, it remains true that in  a state where apparently "education is highly valued" 41% voted for a fatuous ****ing simpletion to be president.

 

And it also remains true that two party systems often result in a contest between resistible force and moveable object - or between choosing which toilet bowl to drink out of.

 

More broadly, just as with Brexit, the breakdown was very stark. In the US and UK, those educated beyond school level voted in huge numbers for Clinton and Remain; and those who aren't voted in similarly huge numbers for Trump and Leave.

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The Real Maroonblood
3 hours ago, Stokesy said:

The thread would be a lot more interesting if everyone just ignored him.

 

It would save having to skim past all of the posts in which people quote him.

Top post.

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4 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And it also remains true that two party systems often result in a contest between resistible force and moveable object - or between choosing which toilet bowl to drink out of.

 

More broadly, just as with Brexit, the breakdown was very stark. In the US and UK, those educated beyond school level voted in huge numbers for Clinton and Remain; and those who aren't voted in similarly huge numbers for Trump and Leave.

Polite way of saying thick brexit voters.

 

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shaun.lawson
8 minutes ago, jake said:

Polite way of saying thick brexit voters.

 

 

The facts don't lie. 

 

Sunderland voted to Leave. And would you just look at that:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

 

Those Leave voters in Sunderland, many of whom will now lose their jobs, are "intelligent" in your world, I take it?

Edited by shaun.lawson
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6 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

The facts don't lie. 

 

Sunderland voted to Leave. And would you just look at that:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/20/nissan-to-cut-hundreds-of-jobs-at-sunderland-plant

 

Those Leave voters in Sunderland, many of whom will now lose their jobs, are "intelligent" in your world, I take it?

Did the Nissan car workers vote brexit?

Does everyone who lives in Sunderland work for Nissan ?

 

Learn something new everyday.

Especially being a thick brexiteer.

 

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shaun.lawson
2 minutes ago, jake said:

Did the Nissan car workers vote brexit?

Does everyone who lives in Sunderland work for Nissan ?

 

Learn something new everyday.

Especially being a thick brexiteer.

 

 

I bet a fair whack of them did. If so, they demonstrated their intelligence by setting themselves on fire in order to prove a point.

 

While other Leave voters in Sunderland demonstrated theirs by setting their friends and neighbours on fire, also in order to prove a point.

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8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I bet a fair whack of them did. If so, they demonstrated their intelligence by setting themselves on fire in order to prove a point.

 

While other Leave voters in Sunderland demonstrated theirs by setting their friends and neighbours on fire, also in order to prove a point.

You should read your own article before using it to bash and generalise people .

Diesel sales are down Europe wide Shaun and these are short term pay offs as Nissan plans to expand production.

 

 

I've no qualms with your different politics and some I agree with.

But your snobbish put downs of people really fekin does my head in.

 

Have a good night.

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9 hours ago, jake said:

You should read your own article before using it to bash and generalise people .

Diesel sales are down Europe wide Shaun and these are short term pay offs as Nissan plans to expand production.

 

 

I've no qualms with your different politics and some I agree with.

But your snobbish put downs of people really fekin does my head in.

 

Have a good night.

 

You complain about people having biases, being blind, etc., and then don't want to confront the facts staring you straight in the face. You voted along with the "thick" group, as you put it--no one else in this conversation said that. That is a fact. Whether it reflects on you or not is entirely, well, up to you.

 

There was no snobbishness far as I saw. Only facts and your taking offence to facts. I left the United States in large part because wilful ignorance is f***ing celebrated there. And then, inevitably, votes for Donald Trump. I've watched my home state fall to 50th in the nation in school funding and teacher pay, after 30+ years of the most ignorant politics imaginable--Republican supermajorities cycle after cycle and everything, literally everything, getting shittier and shittier. Yet the votes keep rolling in. Ignorance ought to be attacked, and it ought to be pointed out when it leads to self immolation.

 

Cry about the facts all you want. Or be a man and hold your hands up and admit you did something pretty f***ing stupid because you thought putting two fingers up to the Man would be cool without considering the potential consequences.

 

 

Edited by Justin Z
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shaun.lawson
24 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

I've watched my home state fall to 50th in the nation in school funding and teacher pay, after 30+ years of the most ignorant politics imaginable-

 

This is a total guess. Ohio?

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4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

This is a total guess. Ohio?

 

No. There's a pretty big hint in my avatar :lol: although I can hardly blame anyone not knowing that's the shape of Arizona

 

Edit: Actually, you've reminded me that maybe I ought to change it because I really feel zero pride in where I'm from at this point. It was a fun idea for an avatar when I hadn't moved over to Scotland yet.

 

 

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shaun.lawson
Just now, Justin Z said:

 

No. There's a pretty big hint in my avatar :lol: although I can hardly blame anyone not knowing that's the shape of Arizona

 

Wow. I'd never have guessed that! That must be one in the eye for those who've considered McCain a reasonable, competent politician, no?

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3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

Wow. I'd never have guessed that! That must be one in the eye for those who've considered McCain a reasonable, competent politician, no?

 

Obviously he's a war hero and has been through more than just about anyone in the western world. Full credit to him for that.

 

That he's a war hawk (which after what he went through seems a terribly immoral stance to take) and contradicts himself constantly and holds no real solid positions on anything . . . well, plenty of people are willing to overlook that because of the first thing.

 

I was referring to state politics specifically though, where Republicans have held an unassailable supermajority in the legislature for decades.  McCain will have had nothing to do with that since he moved to Arizona in order to become a senator at the national level.

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shaun.lawson
1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

Obviously he's a war hero and has been through more than just about anyone in the western world. Full credit to him for that.

 

That he's a war hawk (which after what he went through seems a terribly immoral stance to take) and contradicts himself constantly and holds no real solid positions on anything . . . well, plenty of people are willing to overlook that because of the first thing.

 

I was referring to state politics specifically though, where Republicans have held an unassailable supermajority in the legislature for decades.  McCain will have had nothing to do with that since he moved to Arizona in order to become a senator at the national level.

 

Ah, fair dos. On McCain, we all wish him well of course. But he's such a hawk, I reckon he probably drops sugar lumps into his tea from 20 feet above. 

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Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Ah, fair dos. On McCain, we all wish him well of course. But he's such a hawk, I reckon he probably drops sugar lumps into his tea from 20 feet above. 

 

:lol: Nah. He'll be a black coffee drinker. Bitter as, to the end.

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Francis Albert

If supposedly highly intelligent people continue to dismiss the Trump victory as merely a triumph for ignorance without addressing the underlying and legitimate reasons why people voted for Trump (despite in many cases strongly disapproving of him) then Trump may well get a second term.

There is certainly no sign of a coherent opposition strategy from the Democrats (or indeed in his own party).

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shaun.lawson
5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

If supposedly highly intelligent people continue to dismiss the Trump victory as merely a triumph for ignorance without addressing the underlying and legitimate reasons why people voted for Trump (despite in many cases strongly disapproving of him) then Trump may well get a second term.

There is certainly no sign of a coherent opposition strategy from the Democrats (or indeed in his own party).

 

Agree on the second point. I would agree on the first too, if the Republicans weren't doing catastrophically badly in special elections across the US. 15-20 point swings are becoming the norm.

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1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

You complain about people having biases, being blind, etc., and then don't want to confront the facts staring you straight in the face. You voted along with the "thick" group, as you put it--no one else in this conversation said that. That is a fact. Whether it reflects on you or not is entirely, well, up to you.

 

There was no snobbishness far as I saw. Only facts and your taking offence to facts. I left the United States in large part because wilful ignorance is f***ing celebrated there. And then, inevitably, votes for Donald Trump. I've watched my home state fall to 50th in the nation in school funding and teacher pay, after 30+ years of the most ignorant politics imaginable--Republican supermajorities cycle after cycle and everything, literally everything, getting shittier and shittier. Yet the votes keep rolling in. Ignorance ought to be attacked, and it ought to be pointed out when it leads to self immolation.

 

Cry about the facts all you want. Or be a man and hold your hands up and admit you did something pretty f***ing stupid because you thought putting two fingers up to the Man would be cool without considering the potential consequences.

 

 

Shaun cited the Nissan plants redundancies.

These are temporary due to a downturn in diesel sales not brexit.

In fact Nissan has committed to the plant long term.

 

And yes he said people like me voted because we didn't go past full time education.

 

Tony Benn as an example was anti EU.

As was /is Corbynn.

 

His generalisation of the northern English who have been at the sharp end of right wing politics and ignored by Labour is wrong.

 

I also note that on another thread he gave credit to Blair's government all the benefits he usually credits the EU with.

 

Nothing quite like making the argument suit .

 

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1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Agree on the second point. I would agree on the first too, if the Republicans weren't doing catastrophically badly in special elections across the US. 15-20 point swings are becoming the norm.

 

I might agree with the first point if anyone here had said the reason Trump won was down "merely" to ignorance, or if there was ever a legitimate reason to vote for him.

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shaun.lawson
1 hour ago, jake said:

I also note that on another thread he gave credit to Blair's government all the benefits he usually credits the EU with.

 

Not true at all. I'm a Eurosceptic myself - in that I'm completely against the euro, but voted Remain because we're not part of it, and had the best of both worlds instead.

 

What was a really central emotive argument of Leave? "Life is shit... and it's all the EU's fault. Vote Leave, and life will be better". So the EU's blamed for mass immigration, when there's been far more of it elsewhere in Europe. And immigration is blamed for low wages - when wages have risen across the rest of Europe. It's nonsense.

 

The truth is, as we control our own monetary supply, it's our government who determine policy. So we had good government under New Labour; and shocking, horrendous government under Cameron, and even more under May. Austerity was a political decision taken by the Tories. Nothing to do with the EU. Investing in schools and hospitals was a political decision taken by Labour. Nothing to do with the EU there either.

Edited by shaun.lawson
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49 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Not true at all. I'm a Eurosceptic myself - in that I'm completely against the euro, but voted Remain because we're not part of it, and had the best of both worlds instead.

 

What was a really central emotive argument of Leave? "Life is shit... and it's all the EU's fault. Vote Leave, and life will be better". So the EU's blamed for mass immigration, when there's been far more of it elsewhere in Europe. And immigration is blamed for low wages - when wages have risen across the rest of Europe. It's nonsense.

 

The truth is, as we control our own monetary supply, it's our government who determine policy. So we had good government under New Labour; and shocking, horrendous government under Cameron, and even more under May. Austerity was a political decision taken by the Tories. Nothing to do with the EU. Investing in schools and hospitals was a political decision taken by Labour. Nothing to do with the EU there either.

 

PFI?  Watch this space....

 

New Labour was simply Toryism with a semi-humane face.  It kicked the arse out of the emperor's new clothes that was Clinton's "third way".

 

 

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shaun.lawson
1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

PFI?  Watch this space....

 

New Labour was simply Toryism with a semi-humane face.  It kicked the arse out of the emperor's new clothes that was Clinton's "third way".

 

 

 

Not all of it was PFI at all. By the time Labour left, the NHS - left in an absolutely disgusting state by Thatcher/Major - was back doing very well, hugely well regarded. Hence Cameron's desperate need to insist he'd protect it: which of course, the Tories have done anything but.

 

In the 1990s Boris, I can still remember endless winter bed crises, horrendous waiting lists... and when it came to schools, water coming in through ceilings and old books held together with sticky tape. How much of this continued under Labour? Any of it at all? 

 

I flat out do not understand how you can be so continually blase about the very many good things Labour did, and the huge numbers of people they helped. It's like some strange form of political amnesia. 

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5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Not all of it was PFI at all. By the time Labour left, the NHS - left in an absolutely disgusting state by Thatcher/Major - was back doing very well, hugely well regarded. Hence Cameron's desperate need to insist he'd protect it: which of course, the Tories have done anything but.

 

In the 1990s Boris, I can still remember endless winter bed crises, horrendous waiting lists... and when it came to schools, water coming in through ceilings and old books held together with sticky tape. How much of this continued under Labour? Any of it at all? 

 

I flat out do not understand how you can be so continually blase about the very many good things Labour did, and the huge numbers of people they helped. It's like some strange form of political amnesia. 

 

Shaun, in Edinburgh it wasn't the books that were held together with sticky-tape, it was the bloody school buildings themselves!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39580308

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36013755

 

I'm not being blase about the New Labour project.  Yes, they were better than the Tories, but  generally speaking, who isn't?  But they weren't socialists.  Social democratic in the SDP, David Owen mould perhaps.  Hell, the LD's under Charles Kennedy were more radical than New Labour!

 

But for all the good, what has stuck?  As I said previously, it felt better and things were good (benefit of being right time right place for an economic boom?  Or, cynically, allow banks businesses to create a boom and thus look good?) but the system never really changed.  No PR, no elected second chamber so in retrospect a bit of a damp squib.

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2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Not true at all. I'm a Eurosceptic myself - in that I'm completely against the euro, but voted Remain because we're not part of it, and had the best of both worlds instead.

 

What was a really central emotive argument of Leave? "Life is shit... and it's all the EU's fault. Vote Leave, and life will be better". So the EU's blamed for mass immigration, when there's been far more of it elsewhere in Europe. And immigration is blamed for low wages - when wages have risen across the rest of Europe. It's nonsense.

 

The truth is, as we control our own monetary supply, it's our government who determine policy. So we had good government under New Labour; and shocking, horrendous government under Cameron, and even more under May. Austerity was a political decision taken by the Tories. Nothing to do with the EU. Investing in schools and hospitals was a political decision taken by Labour. Nothing to do with the EU there either.

Fair enough.

 

So you agree the redundancies at Nissan are not brexit related .

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