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How Scotland compares to the rest of Europe


Chaps

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IveSeenTheLight

 

Very important part

 

 

All figures relate to clubs playing in the Scottish Premiership in the 2015/16 season.

For reference, they were: Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee United, Hamilton Academical, Heart of Midlothian, Inverness CT, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Partick Thistle, Ross County and St Johnstone.

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Scottish clubs have done well to reduce net debt collectively. This has largely transpired due to Hearts and Rangers suffering insolvency events whilst Celtic have received substantial transfer revenue from England. A number of clubs have been able to negotiate favourable terms with LBG to reduce their senior debt exposures

 

Unfortunately Scotland continues to suffer from appallingly bad commercial exposure at a time when equivalent exposure in England has gone off the scale

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Another bit on it by STV (who I think are doing a great job of reporting Scottish football btw, the most trustworthy source for me):

 

https://stv.tv/sport/football/1377885-fans-cash-ensures-scottish-football-in-strong-financial-health/

 

"Just 13% of total revenue to Scottish Premiership clubs on average comes from broadcast revenues. In comparison, English top flight teams are propped up by 51% of their revenue coming from television."

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Scottish clubs have done well to reduce net debt collectively. This has largely transpired due to Hearts and Rangers suffering insolvency events whilst Celtic have received substantial transfer revenue from England. A number of clubs have been able to negotiate favourable terms with LBG to reduce their senior debt exposures

 

Unfortunately Scotland continues to suffer from appallingly bad commercial exposure at a time when equivalent exposure in England has gone off the scale

Don't think these particular figures include Rangers.

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Don't think these particular figures include Rangers.

No they don't include Rangers. More a general observation about the financial landscape in Scottish football

 

Celtic have probably received more in ECL revenue this season than Hearts & Aberdeen's turnover combined

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No they don't include Rangers. More a general observation about the financial landscape in Scottish football

I agree with you. Just wasn't sure if you had realised the stats are minus Rangers.

 

Lot of debt restructures happened in the last few years.

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I agree with you. Just wasn't sure if you had realised the stats are minus Rangers.

 

Lot of debt restructures happened in the last few years.

That's right. Number of clubs have benefited from LBG wishing to extricate themselves from football club exposure

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That's right. Number of clubs have benefited from LBG wishing to extricate themselves from football club exposure

Off the top of my head:

 

Hibs

Dundee United

Aberdeen

Kilmarnock

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Appalling that fan's cash is more than the TV deal. Why do the clubs allow Doncaster to continue ??? 

 

Its depressing. If we as a league could match what is on offer in the lower championship then we'd actually have a chance at generating a national team worth watching. Youngsters going down south learn nothing in the reserves. Doncaster needs sacked.

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Appalling that fan's cash is more than the TV deal. Why do the clubs allow Doncaster to continue ???

 

Its depressing. If we as a league could match what is on offer in the lower championship then we'd actually have a chance at generating a national team worth watching. Youngsters going down south learn nothing in the reserves. Doncaster needs sacked.

A consequence of being a region and not a proper country. Similar sized countries to Scotland get better deals from their national broadcasters. We are shackled to a behemoth a few miles south of here. Our incompetent blazers do not help though, obviously.

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If we received 1 percent of Englands TV package we would be doing alright.

 

Gary Lineker get paid more than BBC pays the whole of Scottish football. By far.

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A consequence of being a region and not a proper country. Similar sized countries to Scotland get better deals from their national broadcasters. We are shackled to a behemoth a few miles south of here. Our incompetent blazers do not help though, obviously.

You're suggesting independence would help?

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Appalling that fan's cash is more than the TV deal. Why do the clubs allow Doncaster to continue ??? 

 

Its depressing. If we as a league could match what is on offer in the lower championship then we'd actually have a chance at generating a national team worth watching. Youngsters going down south learn nothing in the reserves. Doncaster needs sacked.

 

Getting rid of Doncaster and Regan would be a start, but merging the SFA and SPFL into one body and moving it outside Glasgow would be what I think is the solution.

 

The replacement governing body should be one that is on board with fans, by wanting to give us an exciting and fair league. It'd take time, but a complete revamp is needed as the current setup is full of deadwood.

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A consequence of being a region and not a proper country. Similar sized countries to Scotland get better deals from their national broadcasters. We are shackled to a behemoth a few miles south of here. Our incompetent blazers do not help though, obviously.

 

I mean comparatively I would expect a deal similar to or better than Denmark. They have the German behemoth south of their border. There are no targets set by the SFA so they get away with... I was going to say mediocrity but they are actually performing worse than mediocre. It frustrates me because the club chairmen (ours included) sit back and do nothing and ask no questions. True Budge has had to ingratiate herself into the clique but nonetheless it is painful to watch. You guys remember when Doncaster gave himself a wage rise? Tv revenue went down (I think it was 2012). Embarrassing stuff. Makes you wonder if the red head papers are in his pocket (No journo would surely think this is a situation not worth questioning?).

 

For what its worth I completely agree with you, the quicker this happens the better for our football league (amongst other things) IN MY OPINION (Don't want to kick off an indyref debate)

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loveofthegame

A consequence of being a region and not a proper country. Similar sized countries to Scotland get better deals from their national broadcasters. We are shackled to a behemoth a few miles south of here. Our incompetent blazers do not help though, obviously.

 

What absolute nonsense.

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Bazzas right boot

A consequence of being a region and not a proper country. Similar sized countries to Scotland get better deals from their national broadcasters. We are shackled to a behemoth a few miles south of here. Our incompetent blazers do not help though, obviously.

Not only a footballing problem, however i digress........

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Appalling that fan's cash is more than the TV deal. Why do the clubs allow Doncaster to continue ??? 

 

Its depressing. If we as a league could match what is on offer in the lower championship then we'd actually have a chance at generating a national team worth watching. Youngsters going down south learn nothing in the reserves. Doncaster needs sacked.

 

This bit is telling though:

 

 

Gate receipts account for, on average, 37% of club revenues and 39% of revenue comes from sponsorship and commercial money.

 
Scotland's percentage of revenue from gate receipts was higher than any other country in Europe's top 20 leagues.
 
For a league which gives broadcast rights holders such leeway to change kick-off times and dictate schedules, only 13% of revenue comes from those sources.
 
Some of these numbers are skewed by the money Celtic bring in from gates and sponsors, which drags numbers up.
 
Some clubs have told STV that, actually, broadcast money accounts for a greater proportion of their revenues.
 
As a comparison, England's revenue mix is 49% domestic broadcasting, 16% gate receipts, 29% sponsorship/commercial.
 
UEFA revenue accounts for less than 5%. This demonstrates an exceptional reliance on TV money.

 

To some extent this goes a ways to explaining the state of the league and the persistence of Doncaster.  Not that I want them to hear me say it, but financially at least this is an instance of Celtic's gate cash propping up those numbers.  At the other end of the league,  the wee clubs prop up their finances with TV money.

 

The clubs hurt most by this are the middle clubs like Hearts and Aberdeen, and to a lesser extent Hibs and the Dundee clubs, which on the one hand can't compete financially with Celtic (and potentially at some point Rangers again too) but in proportion to our support don't get the same cash injection from TV that the St. Mirrens of the world do.

 

In regards to declining revenue, this is an interesting one.  My flat take is that overall player quality in the SPFL has declined since the implosion of Rangers but that my enjoyment of matches has gone up as they've gotten more competitive more often.  In other words, the OF money has been allowing lower clubs to buy a marginally higher standard of player in return for entirely uncompetitive league races.  

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I mean comparatively I would expect a deal similar to or better than Denmark. They have the German behemoth south of their border. There are no targets set by the SFA so they get away with... I was going to say mediocrity but they are actually performing worse than mediocre. It frustrates me because the club chairmen (ours included) sit back and do nothing and ask no questions. True Budge has had to ingratiate herself into the clique but nonetheless it is painful to watch. You guys remember when Doncaster gave himself a wage rise? Tv revenue went down (I think it was 2012). Embarrassing stuff. Makes you wonder if the red head papers are in his pocket (No journo would surely think this is a situation not worth questioning?).

 

For what its worth I completely agree with you, the quicker this happens the better for our football league (amongst other things) IN MY OPINION (Don't want to kick off an indyref debate)

No, I don't want to either. It's too late to make much difference now anyway, unfortunately.

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Appalling that fan's cash is more than the TV deal. Why do the clubs allow Doncaster to continue ???

 

Its depressing. If we as a league could match what is on offer in the lower championship then we'd actually have a chance at generating a national team worth watching. Youngsters going down south learn nothing in the reserves. Doncaster needs sacked.

The number one outcome of the fans cash being dominant was it forced Rangers into League 2 instead of back to Premiership.

 

Disappointing fans not listened to more though maybe they are.

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All I'll add is that where I live I would much rather be Scottish than English.

 

Thank you and goodnight.

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Psychedelicropcircle

time to start spl internet channel so long as all the teams got same coverage I'd pay.

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So basically Scotland is the 10th most watched league in Europe in terms of active supporters. And that was without the Huns.

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What absolute nonsense.

 

If you are going to be so blunt at least take the trouble to explain why you think it is absolute nonsense.

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Stephen Muddie

You're suggesting independence would help?

Yea he is. He's right. But that's hardly a factor in whether someone should want independence.
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Stephen Muddie

time to start spl internet channel so long as all the teams got same coverage I'd pay.

Me too. I believe the talent exists in Scotland to produce a high quality broadcast product. The secret is that the talent doesn't reside within the backslapping, negative, corrupt minds of the old pals act.
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How does Malmo show ?25M operating profit?

They would be our size in a smaller town??

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Scottish clubs have done well to reduce net debt collectively. This has largely transpired due to Hearts and Rangers suffering insolvency events whilst Celtic have received substantial transfer revenue from England. A number of clubs have been able to negotiate favourable terms with LBG to reduce their senior debt exposures

Unfortunately Scotland continues to suffer from appallingly bad commercial exposure at a time when equivalent exposure in England has gone off the scale

The current governance does not know how to commercialise the club.

This is despite probably one of the best sponsorship possibilities in UK.

It is understandable how risk averse they are considering the morons that run us in the past.

I am hoping they get it eventually!

We have massive potential in this area.

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The current governance does not know how to commercialise the club.

This is despite probably one of the best sponsorship possibilities in UK.

It is understandable how risk averse they are considering the morons that run us in the past.

I am hoping they get it eventually!

We have massive potential in this area.

What are the Hearts board missing? Interested to know. 

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The current governance does not know how to commercialise the club.

This is despite probably one of the best sponsorship possibilities in UK.

It is understandable how risk averse they are considering the morons that run us in the past.

I am hoping they get it eventually!

We have massive potential in this area.

I wasn't referring to Hearts specifically, but Scottish football as a collective proposition

 

Doncaster has failed miserably in this crucially important area.

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How does Malmo show ?25M operating profit?

They would be our size in a smaller town??

They are usually quite successful in europe

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Appalling that fan's cash is more than the TV deal. Why do the clubs allow Doncaster to continue ???

 

Its depressing. If we as a league could match what is on offer in the lower championship then we'd actually have a chance at generating a national team worth watching. Youngsters going down south learn nothing in the reserves. Doncaster needs sacked.

Firstly, and this is a genuine question, I'm not trying to wind you up or anything, but why is it appalling that that clubs in Scotland are making more money from spectators attending matches than they are from the sale of tv rights?

 

Secondly, Doncaster is clearly still in the job because most of the clubs think he's doing a good job overall, and that replacing him with someone else wouldn't necessarily bring gains. I know that most fans think he does a terrible job, particularly when it comes to negotiating tv deals, but I don't think that's anything like as clear cut a thing as it might appear. He's having to sell Scottish football rights to English tv companies that see Scottish football as little more than channel filler. Even in Scotland, there are a lot of people who are more interested in watching English football on tv than Scottish football. I'm not sure that other similar sized European countries which are often used as a comparison for tv revenue are in the same situation.

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You're suggesting independence would help?

I think that would only help if we then had a separate Scottish Sky and BT Sport. As things stand, we're having to sell tv rights to companies that are, in football terms, effectively foreign broadcasters. My personal opinion is that we'll only ever get the sort of money that would be perceived by most people as 'proper value' for our tv rights if we have a Scotland-based, Scotland-focused pay tv broadcaster to sell the rights to, one that would view Scottish football as the primary product for their sports channels, and that would see Scottish football as a significant driver of both viewing figures and subscriber numbers.

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The Treasurer

This bit is telling though:

 

 

To some extent this goes a ways to explaining the state of the league and the persistence of Doncaster.  Not that I want them to hear me say it, but financially at least this is an instance of Celtic's gate cash propping up those numbers.  At the other end of the league,  the wee clubs prop up their finances with TV money.

 

The clubs hurt most by this are the middle clubs like Hearts and Aberdeen, and to a lesser extent Hibs and the Dundee clubs, which on the one hand can't compete financially with Celtic (and potentially at some point Rangers again too) but in proportion to our support don't get the same cash injection from TV that the St. Mirrens of the world do.

 

 

Sellik's out of proportion income may help these type of figures look good, and as a result let those running things wrongly claim they are doing a good job. But it does absolutely nothing in terms of helping the rest of the clubs in this country.

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A consequence of being a region and not a proper country. Similar sized countries to Scotland get better deals from their national broadcasters. We are shackled to a behemoth a few miles south of here. Our incompetent blazers do not help though, obviously.

 

There is definitely a disparity in the amount of money we get back from what licence fee payers in Scotland send to the BBC. And equally the likes of Sky and BT could put more money back in, considering the take-up of paid tv is high across Scotland.

 

But, crucially, the idiots in charge talked our game down so much instead of promoting it - particularly the ridiculous armageddon claims from Doncaster et al when Rangers went out of business, we absolutely shot ourselves in the foot. Almost like a Scottish Football version of the dreaded Scottish cringe.

 

I'm not sure whether we could ever restore our fortunes now  via political or other solutions (say we ended up with a truly Federal devolution and a better funded, more autonomous BBC Scotland for example) as the English game is so well promoted and will always over-shadow ours (I think we used to hold our own in the pre sat-tv days because we were still sending quality, important players to the top teams in England which made us of interest).

 

But the appetite for the game up here remains despite so many reasons for people to have lost interest. Getting rid of the largs mafia and the utterly useless Doncaster for someone who has experience in promotion would be a start. 

 

 

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Firstly, and this is a genuine question, I'm not trying to wind you up or anything, but why is it appalling that that clubs in Scotland are making more money from spectators attending matches than they are from the sale of tv rights?

 

Secondly, Doncaster is clearly still in the job because most of the clubs think he's doing a good job overall, and that replacing him with someone else wouldn't necessarily bring gains. I know that most fans think he does a terrible job, particularly when it comes to negotiating tv deals, but I don't think that's anything like as clear cut a thing as it might appear. He's having to sell Scottish football rights to English tv companies that see Scottish football as little more than channel filler. Even in Scotland, there are a lot of people who are more interested in watching English football on tv than Scottish football. I'm not sure that other similar sized European countries which are often used as a comparison for tv revenue are in the same situation.

 

Okay no this was exactly the sort of constructive debate that we should be having.

 

I believe that football as a professional sport has become heavily commercialised and as a result there is a dependency on commercial income (primarily TV deal money and shirt sponsorship). When we look at other leagues we see lower average attendances but better Tv deals (examples being Norway and Denmark). Obviously if we look south of the border we can see how much the TV deal they have is propping up that league (filter down effect on smaller teams than us being able to nab our best players). What I find appalling is the failure of the SFA to simply keep up. In this era of commercialisation I don't believe that we should be in a position where ticket money is so essential. The match day experience is so expensive that many families are put off and I believe that if Doncaster and co did their job properly then we would have a competitive TV and commercial deal which would allow the SPFL clubs the freedom to adopt more competitive pricing strategies inline with other leisure activities (Like going to the cinema, going for a meal or even Bowling), and be able to retain players. 

 

So to try and clear up that wall of text (oops) I find it appalling because it isn't the case in other premier leagues across europe and it is affecting teams ability to remain competitive.

 

Regarding Doncaster, I think he is inept. I think the reason clubs are happy to sit by is that no one wants to rock the boat. There is a jobs for the boys cliquish mentality within Scottish football and breaking from the pack and speaking out is frowned upon. The man gave himself a wage rise to ?200k PA after the demise of Scotlands most successful club (I hate rangers but this is a fact), as a result of their demise our TV deal was damaged and his mishandling of the entire fiasco was embarrassing (You never denigrate your own product, see 'Armageddon' claims). Barry Hearn love him or loathe him knows how to sell a product and he was critical of Doncaster and the entire SFA's marketing of Scottish Football. When an expert in the field is critical generally I think that adds weight to the argument. 

 

Our derbies are pretty fiery occasions. The Old firm derby is watched across the world and you cannot tell me Copenhagen v Brondy is a more exciting fixture? (Again, I'm not OF sycophant but its a unique selling point of our league) Hearts v Hibs is another big fixture that provides a great atmosphere and likewise Aberdeen provide an excellent atmosphere also and then obviously when each of the teams meet each other the atmosphere is always top notch. I think that this product is worth far more than that clown settles for. With a bit of investment the quality could be improved and provide even better viewing and therefore a more impressive and valuable product. 

 

I want Doncaster gone because for ?200,000 PA we could get someone in with a background in marketing, strategy and negotiation to revitalise our game. Frankly under Doncaster our nations football has deteriorated to an embarrassing level. Our national team still hasn't qualified for a major tournament and teams outside of Celtic get laughed out of europe on a regular basis (because they cannot compete due to the lack of funds available). Doncaster is qualified on paper (Quick look on Wikipedia, Lawyer, Norwich, football league director etc) but in practise he has done nothing and will continue to do nothing. I think we have become a cash cow for Sky and BT, cost minimum to use but rake in millions as a result.

 

When you settle on being a channel filler that is all you will be. 

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I think that would only help if we then had a separate Scottish Sky and BT Sport. As things stand, we're having to sell tv rights to companies that are, in football terms, effectively foreign broadcasters. My personal opinion is that we'll only ever get the sort of money that would be perceived by most people as 'proper value' for our tv rights if we have a Scotland-based, Scotland-focused pay tv broadcaster to sell the rights to, one that would view Scottish football as the primary product for their sports channels, and that would see Scottish football as a significant driver of both viewing figures and subscriber numbers.

That would be fine if we were a nation of more than five million. Figures just don't add up unless every single person signs up!

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Bazzas right boot

That would be fine if we were a nation of more than five million. Figures just don't add up unless every single person signs up!

Sigh, that's right we are too small.

The figures do add up. The % we get back are not the same as what we put in to sky or the BBC.

 

Someone posted the %'s it was quite ridiculous, and imo should mean the SFA are binned on that alone for letting it happen.

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What are the Hearts board missing? Interested to know.

 

Somebody with the vision like Brian Cormack had.

He impressed the hell out of me.

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They are usually quite successful in europe

They way they sold themselves is why!

Look at the deals they created. WE are BETTER than them potentially.

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Scottish football is an irrelevance to Europe and UEFA. It's all about the TV money now. From a financial perspective we would be better off in a British league.

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I think that would only help if we then had a separate Scottish Sky and BT Sport. As things stand, we're having to sell tv rights to companies that are, in football terms, effectively foreign broadcasters. My personal opinion is that we'll only ever get the sort of money that would be perceived by most people as 'proper value' for our tv rights if we have a Scotland-based, Scotland-focused pay tv broadcaster to sell the rights to, one that would view Scottish football as the primary product for their sports channels, and that would see Scottish football as a significant driver of both viewing figures and subscriber numbers.

 

This is nonsense.

How would this bring in more than 17M Euros? 

 

What do you think "proper value" ? 20M? 50M? Poland have a population of 38M and they only get 26M Euros from TV. 

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...a bit disco

We switching continents too??

 

Might be a good thing.

 

Oceania might be a better qualifying route for the World Cup than Europe for us!

 

:lol:

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Scottish football is an irrelevance to Europe and UEFA. It's all about the TV money now. From a financial perspective we would be better off in a British league.

Agree.

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Scotland can't compare we are total assholes and we've proved it!

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Scotland can't compare we are total assholes and we've proved it!

Can you explain what you mean? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

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