Even More SNP Nonsense

[JamboX2]

The only thing special about a country is that civilisation has deemed it special. It's the level of group that people choose to negotiate at, trade at, fight at etc. The UK is just fairly unique in that country here does not equal Statehood like it does in most countries.

 

I'm not sure who is against greater autonomy for islands tbh? Greater autonomy isn't independence so isn't really comparable.

 

Edinburgh becoming a city state would be unique compared to Scottish independence in several ways; it has no historical precedence, there is not a significant proportion of the population actively advocating it, it has almost none of the infrastructure to actually do it. That doesn't mean it couldn't argue it's point to do it from a philosophical point of view, but no one does in reality because the notion is ridiculous.

 

And to take your reductio ad absurdum logic to its conclusion, can I as an individual become completely independent from any level of governance?

 

Keeping an open mind is fine but I genuinely don't think I've ever seen you arguing the positive points of independence or backing up a pro independence poster, always seems to be the opposite. I may be completely wrong on that though.

It doesn't matter if there's a historical precedent for anyones independence or the infrastructure for it. Such things would have prevented the establishment of a majority of nations at the UN. When did Bolivia exist before the Spanish Empire? When did Georgia or Khazakstan exist as independent nations prior to the collapse of the USSR? Or Pakistan for that?

 

All that counts is a desire for that are or artificial group of people to run their own affairs.

 

Look at places like Christiana in Copenhagen or Sea Land or more established micronations like Monaco and the like and there is plenty of precedent for this type of thing. If you wanted to you could declare yourself an independent state. The key to whether it's accepted is if a majority of nations in the world recognise your secession from the UK.

 

Scotland is artificial historically. A union of Scots, Celts, Britons, Norse and Picts around the 9th/10th century. It lacks some of the infrastructure of a sovereign nation. So why should it be independent? My point is that if Scotland is deserving of independence then any grouping of people is if they want it.

 

On your final point, that's because some independence supporters on here advocate ethnic nationalism, live in the idea of a land of milk and honey and parrot SNP lines like they're movie quotes. Realism is lacking from the independence argument and it's not helped by those leading a second independence movement who play up to that too readily. There are deep rooted flaws with the Yes movement. If it can't be critical of Scotland, Scottish life, culture and its politics it will fail. It's far too ready to attack its opponents but not be critical of itself.

Edited February 22, 2017 by JamboX2

[AlphonseCapone]

It doesn't matter if there's a historical precedent for anyones independence or the infrastructure for it. Such things would have prevented the establishment of a majority of nations at the UN. When did Bolivia exist before the Spanish Empire? When did Georgia or Khazakstan exist as independent nations prior to the collapse of the USSR? Or Pakistan for that?

 

All that counts is a desire for that are or artificial group of people to run their own affairs.

 

Look at places like Christiana in Copenhagen or Sea Land or more established micronations like Monaco and the like and there is plenty of precedent for this type of thing. If you wanted to you could declare yourself an independent state. The key to whether it's accepted is if a majority of nations in the world recognise your secession from the UK.

 

Scotland is artificial historically. A union of Scots, Celts, Britons, Norse and Picts around the 9th/10th century. It lacks some of the infrastructure of a sovereign nation. So why should it be independent? My point is that if Scotland is deserving of independence then any grouping of people is if they want it.

 

On your final point, that's because some independence supporters advocate ethnic nationalism, live in the idea of a land of milk and honey and parrot SNP lines like they're movie quotes. Realism is lacking from the independence argument and it's not helped by those leading a second independence movement who play up to that too readily.

I didn't say it has never happened or could never happen, I was giving you several reasons why Edinburgh and Scottish Independence are different.

 

And your next paragraph is exactly my point and why this city/council argument is a strawman. There is no desire for Edinburgh to become independent but there is for Scotland, that's the crux of the argument. You agree all it takes is the desire, well I agree completely, 45% of the country desire it, they don't have to shut up about it because people want them to.

 

Side note here but I visited Freetown Christiania a few weeks ago. Interesting place but absolutely disgusting as well.

 

Every country is artificial. The UK even more than Scotland. This is the same point as above. No one is disagreeing Edinburgh should have the right to independence if it wanted it. The key is it doesn't, 45% of Scots (Scots here means anyone eligible to vote on it, not folk born here) do for Scotland, there is your desire. This argument is deflection.

 

Some? I think we could narrow it down to 1 or 2 posters tbh. And there are easily 1 or 2 who are of the same mindset on the other side. I'll say again, I've never seen you pick up cause against them and I find it bizarre as a soft Yes voter you're never on that side of the fence in a discussion.

 

I also think in these types of threads, and people complain yet contribute to it, is that folk will constantly pick up on the stupid arguments but ignore the good points and it descends into terrible debate. The two posters I mention above will be responded to every single time because it's easy but good posts are ignored.

 

I agree btw that the independence campaign needs to have a serious think and come up with some solid answers to the questions they didn't last time. And at this moment, I'm not sure they've done that. I come across as far more "nationalist" on here than I actually am, and more pro SNP than I am but that is purely because I can't stand the bias from one side when they are so blind to how biased they actually are.

 

I guess my point with you is, you're a smart guy, know your stuff and if you picked up on the unionist arguments as keenly as you do with the pro-independence ones then it would lead to better debate all over.

Edited February 22, 2017 by AlphonseCapone

[The Real Maroonblood]

Ms Duffy right up there with the loony MSP banging on about W H Smiths not stocking Scottish spring water!

Buying bottled water in Scotland.

Dearie me.

[deesidejambo]

I didn't say it has never happened or could never happen, I was giving you several reasons why Edinburgh and Scottish Independence are different.

 

And your next paragraph is exactly my point and why this city/council argument is a strawman. There is no desire for Edinburgh to become independent but there is for Scotland, that's the crux of the argument. You agree all it takes is the desire, well I agree completely, 45% of the country desire it, they don't have to shut up about it because people want them to.

 

Side note here but I visited Freetown Christiania a few weeks ago. Interesting place but absolutely disgusting as well.

 

Every country is artificial. The UK even more than Scotland. This is the same point as above. No one is disagreeing Edinburgh should have the right to independence if it wanted it. The key is it doesn't, 45% of Scots (Scots here means anyone eligible to vote on it, not folk born here) do for Scotland, there is your desire. This argument is deflection.

 

Some? I think we could narrow it down to 1 or 2 posters tbh. And there are easily 1 or 2 who are of the same mindset on the other side. I'll say again, I've never seen you pick up cause against them and I find it bizarre as a soft Yes voter you're never on that side of the fence in a discussion.

 

I also think in these types of threads, and people complain yet contribute to it, is that folk will constantly pick up on the stupid arguments but ignore the good points and it descends into terrible debate. The two posters I mention above will be responded to every single time because it's easy but good posts are ignored.

 

I agree btw that the independence campaign needs to have a serious think and come up with some solid answers to the questions they didn't last time. And at this moment, I'm not sure they've done that. I come across as far more "nationalist" on here than I actually am, and more pro SNP than I am but that is purely because I can't stand the bias from one side when they are so blind to how biased they actually are.

 

I guess my point with you is, you're a smart guy, know your stuff and if you picked up on the unionist arguments as keenly as you do with the pro-independence ones then it would lead to better debate all over.

This is a good discussion. The issue is that there is a geographical split within Scotland so can that be handled to keep all parties happy?

 

Northern Ireland is an example of partition that (some may say) works. Others may disagree. But at least geographical aspects facilitated it.

 

As an extreme example, if Shetland were to be strong Yes and the rest of Scotland No, then a partition may work?

 

Also if you separate out Glasgow and Dundee and look at the residual percentage then its not 55/45 any more.

 

So what would be the situation next time if Glasgow and Dunde vote 100% yes and the rest of the Country vote 70/30 No with the overall vote ending up 51% Yes. Would you view that as a fair representation of the overall will of the people?

 

I use extreme examples above for illustration but the point is the geo-demographics are not in favour of an acceptable solution. Hence the future of Scotland is one of divisiveness even if Indy were obtained.

[coconut doug]

No. You said people in the EU view independence supporters as progressive. I questioned that with reference to Soutter. My point being you can't over generalise a movement.

 

Were they cabinet ministers at the time with the ability to do this? Again that was the thrust of your point that Labour ministers supported this. Again happy to read evidence of this when they were in government.

 

Mo you banded about the allegation without backing it up in your post. I'm asking for you to provide evidence for it.

I doubt anybody in the EU has heard of Soutar. I now understand he has not been a donor or a member of the SNP for years. He is now a libdem. What relevance he has to notions of progressiveness in the E.U. only you can know.

 

I don't know if Harriet Harman or Patricia Hewitt or any of the other Labour Party supporters of the Paedophile Information Exchange were ministers at the time.I suspect not but consider it totally irrelevant. The point is they supported PIE and they became ministers afterwards. Are you saying their behaviour can be excused because they didn't think that what PIE were doing was wrong or that they shouldn't take responsibility because they were not ministers? 

 

Re your comments about me being unable to back up my allegation, I don't see why you couldn't google it for yourself as I suggested but against my better judgement you can have this.

 

https://labour25.com/   http://derbypatriot.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/labour25-convicted-paedophiles-within.html http://www.conspiracytruths.co.uk/mpscovictedofsexoffense.html

 

If I had the time I could name dozens more.

[coconut doug]

It doesn't matter if there's a historical precedent for anyones independence or the infrastructure for it. Such things would have prevented the establishment of a majority of nations at the UN. When did Bolivia exist before the Spanish Empire? When did Georgia or Khazakstan exist as independent nations prior to the collapse of the USSR? Or Pakistan for that?

 

All that counts is a desire for that are or artificial group of people to run their own affairs.

 

Look at places like Christiana in Copenhagen or Sea Land or more established micronations like Monaco and the like and there is plenty of precedent for this type of thing. If you wanted to you could declare yourself an independent state. The key to whether it's accepted is if a majority of nations in the world recognise your secession from the UK.

 

Scotland is artificial historically. A union of Scots, Celts, Britons, Norse and Picts around the 9th/10th century. It lacks some of the infrastructure of a sovereign nation. So why should it be independent? My point is that if Scotland is deserving of independence then any grouping of people is if they want it.

 

On your final point, that's because some independence supporters on here advocate ethnic nationalism, live in the idea of a land of milk and honey and parrot SNP lines like they're movie quotes. Realism is lacking from the independence argument and it's not helped by those leading a second independence movement who play up to that too readily. There are deep rooted flaws with the Yes movement. If it can't be critical of Scotland, Scottish life, culture and its politics it will fail. It's far too ready to attack its opponents but not be critical of itself.

I think this is you playing the Nazi card again.

 

I have read this and similar threads foe years now but never read anybody "advocating ethnic nationalism". I could be wrong and you could provide evidence to support your view or I can just assume you are making it up again.

 

I don't know any who think it will be a land of milk and honey either. Usually when this point is brought up indy supporters explain that things are likely to be difficult especially in the short term but nobody would support it if they did not think it would make things better.

[JamboX2]

I think this is you playing the Nazi card again.

 

I have read this and similar threads foe years now but never read anybody "advocating ethnic nationalism". I could be wrong and you could provide evidence to support your view or I can just assume you are making it up again.

Read any of Aussieh's posts?

 

I don't know any who think it will be a land of milk and honey either. Usually when this point is brought up indy supporters explain that things are likely to be difficult especially in the short term but nobody would support it if they did not think it would make things better.

Fair point well made on the bold part.

 

Then you open an argument regarding is it worth a potential lost generation through those difficult times. But that's a seperate point.

[Boris]

Read any of Aussieh's posts?

 

 

Fair point well made on the bold part.

 

Then you open an argument regarding is it worth a potential lost generation through those difficult times. But that's a seperate point.

 

And they won't be lost in the current set up?

[doctor jambo]

Read any of Aussieh's posts?

 

 

Fair point well made on the bold part.

 

Then you open an argument regarding is it worth a potential lost generation through those difficult times. But that's a seperate point.

JX2- the problem is though that we would be entering choppy waters from a feckin whirlpool.

My three kids ( aged 12- 8) have hardly known a "good time " economically. My daughter has lived her whole life in austerity- yet folks want to throw themselves back into something even worse?

Even as it is I get worse off every year ( and that's me on a good salary- god knows what its like for the nurses and suchlike)

I wont vote Indy until such time as it wouldn't leave me crippled

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

.

[Stuart Lyon]

Dr Jambo - I wouldn't ever vote for indy and agree with your views on the economic maelstrom Scotland would suffer if it went down that path.

[doctor jambo]

Dr Jambo - I wouldn't ever vote for indy and agree with your views on the economic maelstrom Scotland would suffer if it went down that path.

The thing is I would, though not as an ideological thing.

IF Scotland were an economic powerhouse, and the case could be made for some kind of economic Switzerland then I totally would.

Or even a sort of rainy Qatar or Saudi with regards to the oil etc

What I don't want is to find myself living in the equivalent of Poland or Romania as our economy tanks.

I, as a higher rate tax payer, don't want my relative share of an economic deficit to rise- I haven't recovered my living standards from 2008, and may never- I certainly don't want them falling even faster

[Boris]

Not imo and not to the same extent. I think you let your bias cloud your judgements.

 

If you don't think they're would be a economic downturn in the first generation after independence. I think your showing the same level of naivity over the Corbin issues.

 

I've never stated that independence would be an immediate panacea to our economic situation.

 

I think that in time it could be.

 

The UK is facing uncertain times due to Brexit, the full ramifications of which we know not.  Hopefully it will all work out for the best, but again, like independence, there will be a period of time where the economy will suffer (IMO).

 

Independence isn't about what's in it for me now.  It's about what our society will be in 10, 20, 30 years time.  

 

As I've mentioned before on other threads, and possibly on this one, I'd be more than happy to remain in the UK if the political system was democratised and the nation federalised.  I doubt any of those things will happen soon, which leads me to conclude that Independence is the last resort, but the most attainable.

 

And yes, perhaps my biases do cloud my judgement!  Yet when I see and hear the likes of May, Johnson, Fox, Davies, Hunt etc I'm not exactly swayed by their arguments.

[deesidejambo]

I've never stated that independence would be an immediate panacea to our economic situation.

 

I think that in time it could be.

 

The UK is facing uncertain times due to Brexit, the full ramifications of which we know not.  Hopefully it will all work out for the best, but again, like independence, there will be a period of time where the economy will suffer (IMO).

 

Independence isn't about what's in it for me now.  It's about what our society will be in 10, 20, 30 years time.  

 

As I've mentioned before on other threads, and possibly on this one, I'd be more than happy to remain in the UK if the political system was democratised and the nation federalised.  I doubt any of those things will happen soon, which leads me to conclude that Independence is the last resort, but the most attainable.

 

And yes, perhaps my biases do cloud my judgement!  Yet when I see and hear the likes of May, Johnson, Fox, Davies, Hunt etc I'm not exactly swayed by their arguments.

I can see the issue about a more representative democracy.    I would prefer that also (but it would now bring UKIP into a position of influence and sink Labour forever).

 

But you would sacrifice the economic health of Scotland to achieve this?   I'd say better to be wealthy with FPTP than poor with PR.

[Boris]

I can see the issue about a more representative democracy.    I would prefer that also (but it would now bring UKIP into a position of influence and sink Labour forever).

 

But you would sacrifice the economic health of Scotland to achieve this?   I'd say better to be wealthy with FPTP than poor with PR.

 

I'm not sure I understand you on that point.  Do you mean that FPTP  elects a government at Westminster that is better for Scotlan'ds economic health, than one that would be elected via PR?  If so, I'm not sure of the corelation.

[deesidejambo]

I'm not sure I understand you on that point.  Do you mean that FPTP  elects a government at Westminster that is better for Scotlan'ds economic health, than one that would be elected via PR?  If so, I'm not sure of the corelation.

No I mean UK is a wealthy economy and I don't believe Indy Scotland will be.    This is regardless of which Govt is in power in either.    

 

Perhaps another way - milk the Barnett formula is better than trying to survive alone.     EU membership comes into that equation.   Can Scotland milk the EU also?  I doubt that.

[coconut doug]

No I mean UK is a wealthy economy and I don't believe Indy Scotland will be.    This is regardless of which Govt is in power in either.    

 

Perhaps another way - milk the Barnett formula is better than trying to survive alone.     EU membership comes into that equation.   Can Scotland milk the EU also?  I doubt that.

Or we could have some self respect, stand on our own two feet and give our children a wider range of opportunities as we build our own country.

 

Alternatively we can vote No and remain scroungers and be viewed by our fellow citizens as exactly that.

 

Is this a Socio group AB view you are expressing?

[deesidejambo]

Or we could have some self respect, stand on our own two feet and give our children a wider range of opportunities as we build our own country.

 

Alternatively we can vote No and remain scroungers and be viewed by our fellow citizens as exactly that.

 

Is this a Socio group AB view you are expressing?

Wrong again. Milking Westminster is more a DE perspective. ABs are already wealthy so care less about social justice.

 

Lord Snooty

[coconut doug]

Read any of Aussieh's posts?

 

 

Fair point well made on the bold part.

 

Then you open an argument regarding is it worth a potential lost generation through those difficult times. But that's a seperate point.

I've read most of his posts, I think.  I don't believe he is an "ethnic nationalist" and I am sure he can answer for himself. I think he has strong feelings about Jockholm syndrome and likes to point out to many "real Scots" that they identify with England more than they do with Scotland.

 

In any case you said "some" posters on here so there must be others, who are they?

 

It seems you are characterising the indy movement on some innuendo from around WW2, a single individuals views on the teaching of homosexuality in schools and somebody who trolls a bit on a football supporters website. Clutching at straws would be more substantial than your arguments. 

[coconut doug]

Wrong again. Milking Westminster is more a DE perspective. ABs are already wealthy so care less about social justice.

 

Lord Snooty

Have you got any evidence to support this double insult.

[deesidejambo]

Have you got any evidence to support this double insult.

Nope it's my opinion in response to your direct question. But ignore it. I'm lying again.

 

Please please put me on ignore.

[Adam Murray]

Or we could have some self respect, stand on our own two feet and give our children a wider range of opportunities as we build our own country.

 

Alternatively we can vote No and remain scroungers and be viewed by our fellow citizens as exactly that.

 

Is this a Socio group AB view you are expressing?

 

 

Are you implying that No voters have no self respect?

[coconut doug]

Are you implying that No voters have no self respect?

NO I'm categorically stating that those people voting No on the basis that they can Milk the Barnet formula have no self respect and no respect for their fellow citizens. Deeside reduced the argument to a new low by claiming that milking the Barnet formula was better than trying to milk the EU.

 

More generally I do believe that our reluctance to become independent to some extent comes from our low opinions of ourselves and I do believe that some people would like not to have the inconvenience of being Scottish, preferring instead an English or British identity. They are small, but significant in number but the notion of Scottish inferiority runs deep in many. Our education system and media has reinforced this through the years and it can take a big effort to free yourself from it. Deeside's comments illustrate this perfectly for me.

 

He sees the issue as where we can get the most subsidy, but for most of us the question is how can we make things better and many of us see no prospect of advance in the U.K. Where is the self respect in voting for a seemingly eternal Tory government if you are not a Tory? What you are saying is the Tories can do a better job of running our country than the Scots can. This is The Scottish Cringe, rarely better exemplified than in Deeside's posts.

[deesidejambo]

NO I'm categorically stating that those people voting No on the basis that they can Milk the Barnet formula have no self respect and no respect for their fellow citizens. Deeside reduced the argument to a new low by claiming that milking the Barnet formula was better than trying to milk the EU.

 

More generally I do believe that our reluctance to become independent to some extent comes from our low opinions of ourselves and I do believe that some people would like not to have the inconvenience of being Scottish, preferring instead an English or British identity. They are small, but significant in number but the notion of Scottish inferiority runs deep in many. Our education system and media has reinforced this through the years and it can take a big effort to free yourself from it. Deeside's comments illustrate this perfectly for me.

 

He sees the issue as where we can get the most subsidy, but for most of us the question is how can we make things better and many of us see no prospect of advance in the U.K. Where is the self respect in voting for a seemingly eternal Tory government if you are not a Tory? What you are saying is the Tories can do a better job of running our country than the Scots can. This is The Scottish Cringe, rarely better exemplified than in Deeside's posts.

Get me on ignore then. Please I'm begging you

[Space Mackerel]

Get me on ignore then. Please I'm begging you

He's 100% right though.

[Boris]

You intimated that it would be no worse for a generation that currently. I think your wrong and suspect you probably know that also.

 

The UK survived much better out the global crisis than most. One of the major benefits on a union is the pulling and balancing of resources to negative impacts of unforssen issues.

 

I agree we will suffer as a result of brexit, when occurs, I think we will see a downturn much like independence would. Whilst I don't think the sky will collapse people will suffer and it won't be the people at the higher end of scale who will suffer it's the less fortunate. They always feel economic impact more.

 

I here people say a lot this about 20 years time or whatever. That strikes me as a selfish attitude, your happy to watch your kids suffer in a hope it will be better in a couple of generations based on nothing but belief. You must know that tough economical times lead to certain political views.

 

Same with people who say economics shouldn't come into play around independence debate as, it's only a few quid difference. The people who need most can ill afford another economic down turn.

 

There is no evidence the political system in Scotland will change after independence. You might prefer our electoral approach but democratically they're will be naff all difference.

 

On your last point in the word of George Michael listen without prejudice. Despite what your view people across all political spectrum want the same the mechanics of how that happens is different. I could paint any political party as evil or whatever, the truth is they're all after the same thing. Political prejudice just lead division when truth is more so than ever we need to be working together to improve things.

 

Politics is rarely about economics, health education and how we improve nowadays. Just a simplified question which doesn't address the root cause that disappoints me.

 

I don't think independence would lead to the economic collapse or honestly much worse, if any, to where we are heading.  You are right to imagine thatit will be the less fortunate who will suffer most, therefore it is imperitive to have a system in place that looks after them, one that (imo) Westminster is increasingly trying to distance itself from.

 

Sometimes we have to look to the longer term, but that doesn't mean we take our eye of the ball in the moment.  The World today is evidence of economic hard times having an effect of politics, however I am not convinced that independence would automatically lead to extremist politics taking hold of the country.

 

I also agree with you that the political system will more or less remain the same - yet we are told that the Tories in Scotland are less harsh than their Westminster counterparts, and there is the potential for a shift back to a more traditional type of Labour Party.  The multi party nature and experience of our electoral system, suggests a healthy future for plurality in Scottish politics.  The SNP will remain, but now its raison d'etre has been achieved, would it wither?  Would it split?  The end of the independence question would mean a fresh start for every party.

 

I'd like to think that I consider all points of view, but if I disagree with them, that hardly means I'm prejudiced, does it?  But I'm all for concensus where possible, something an electoral system like the one for the Scottish Parliament provides, unlike Westminster.

[deesidejambo]

He's 100% right though.

Indeed you make a great pair.

[Pans Jambo]

no...whats stupid is the fanatically delude SNP supporters who were beaten by the will of the people, yet still bang on and on and on about independence despite being told to doo one.

 

the results are in you lost, get over it. since then you've lost your main bargaining chip(black gold) so only stupidity would change the outcome of another referndum

What if you cant stand the SNP but would like to see the country of your birth become politically independent from the rUK so it could in fact vote in a government that it really wants to enact what the people really want to see? Would that be OK?

[JamboX2]

Not imo and not to the same extent. I think you let your bias cloud your judgements.

 

If you don't think they're would be a economic downturn in the first generation after independence. I think your showing the same level of naivity over the Corbin issues.

My view also Boris.

[JamboX2]

I've read most of his posts, I think. I don't believe he is an "ethnic nationalist" and I am sure he can answer for himself. I think he has strong feelings about Jockholm syndrome and likes to point out to many "real Scots" that they identify with England more than they do with Scotland.

 

In any case you said "some" posters on here so there must be others, who are they?

 

It seems you are characterising the indy movement on some innuendo from around WW2, a single individuals views on the teaching of homosexuality in schools and somebody who trolls a bit on a football supporters website. Clutching at straws would be more substantial than your arguments.

Coco by arguing that only Scots born in Scotland should be allowed a vote and that only those that back independence are Scots is ethnic nationalism.

[jambo lodge]

There are three financial time bombs in the UK which would have to be addressed by an independent Scotland. 1. The cost and level of debt in the country..... Scotland would inherit it's fair share from the UK, without any track record of dealing with national debt before. 2. The cost of running the NHS with people living longer and population increasing.....Scotland faces the additional fact that we are an unhealthy nation and the population is relatively scattered which makes the NHS in Scotland even more costly. 3. The UK government has always underestimated the cost of inflation proof pensions within the public sector........Scotland has proportionately more public sector workers than anywhere else in the UK so the pension burden would be even greater.  

[reaths17]

What if you cant stand the SNP but would like to see the country of your birth become politically independent from the rUK so it could in fact vote in a government that it really wants to enact what the people really want to see? Would that be OK?

we've voted in the SNP for years now, health service is crumbling, police scotland has seen our safety diminished, education is chronic, the economy is shambolic....the things you want your government to administer for you, thats going well under the SNP.

 

independent but under the rule of the crumbling EU, any of you separatists asked the greeks how thats going or any of the other small nations suffering under germanys, brussels yokel.

[jack D and coke]

You intimated that it would be no worse for a generation that currently. I think your wrong and suspect you probably know that also.

 

The UK survived much better out the global crisis than most. One of the major benefits on a union is the pulling and balancing of resources to negative impacts of unforssen issues.

 

I agree we will suffer as a result of brexit, when occurs, I think we will see a downturn much like independence would. Whilst I don't think the sky will collapse people will suffer and it won't be the people at the higher end of scale who will suffer it's the less fortunate. They always feel economic impact more.

 

I here people say a lot this about 20 years time or whatever. That strikes me as a selfish attitude, your happy to watch your kids suffer in a hope it will be better in a couple of generations based on nothing but belief. You must know that tough economical times lead to certain political views.

 

Same with people who say economics shouldn't come into play around independence debate as, it's only a few quid difference. The people who need most can ill afford another economic down turn.

 

There is no evidence the political system in Scotland will change after independence. You might prefer our electoral approach but democratically they're will be naff all difference.

 

On your last point in the word of George Michael listen without prejudice. Despite what your view people across all political spectrum want the same the mechanics of how that happens is different. I could paint any political party as evil or whatever, the truth is they're all after the same thing. Political prejudice just lead division when truth is more so than ever we need to be working together to improve things.

 

Politics is rarely about economics, health education and how we improve nowadays. Just a simplified question which doesn't address the root cause that disappoints me.

What I can't ever understand is how a nation of 60m can look after 60m better than a nation of 5m can look after 5m? It doesn't make any sense to me. Why would Scotland be the only country on earth completely unable to handle financial shocks? How has every other small nation handled it? Have they all collapsed because they don't have an England or a Germany or a France to look after them?

There's a saying too that it's easier to turn round a small boat than a big ship too.

I have no idea what brexit or Indy would bring (I voted for both incidentally) but this doom doom doom stuff is well wide of the mark for me.

[reaths17]

What I can't ever understand is how a nation of 60m can look after 60m better than a nation of 5m can look after 5m? It doesn't make any sense to me. Why would Scotland be the only country on earth completely unable to handle financial shocks? How has every other small nation handled it? Have they all collapsed because they don't have an England or a Germany or a France to look after them?

There's a saying too that it's easier to turn round a small boat than a big ship too.

I have no idea what brexit or Indy would bring (I voted for both incidentally) but this doom doom doom stuff is well wide of the mark for me.

when the 5mil have a basis of their economy built on a volatile commodity that is also dwindling, i'd say intrepadation is a biggy.

 

were all on the same island, putting up walls on it is stupid.

[Space Mackerel]

when the 5mil have a basis of their economy built on a volatile commodity that is also dwindling, i'd say intrepadation is a biggy.

 

were all on the same island, putting up walls on it is stupid.

I don't see it as putting up walls, I see it as the island increasing democracy, which is not a bad thing.

[Pans Jambo]

we've voted in the SNP for years now, health service is crumbling, police scotland has seen our safety diminished, education is chronic, the economy is shambolic....the things you want your government to administer for you, thats going well under the SNP.

 

independent but under the rule of the crumbling EU, any of you separatists asked the greeks how thats going or any of the other small nations suffering under germanys, brussels yokel.

See this Health Service crumbling shite. When has it NOT been crumbling. My mother gave birth to me in an NHS hospital. My Mrs gave birth to my 2 kids in an NHS hospital. An NHS hospital helped my mum beat cancer and continue to monitor it. An NHS operated on my dad. The A&E at the ERI helped me when I needed it & I have just been to the NHS dentist for a check-up this afternoon. Its like living in bloody Syria!

 

Its ALWAYS dying.

 

I dont have a clue what you are on about 'safety'?

 

I grew up in the 70's & 80's when there WAS no economy.

 

Dont believe what you see on BBC Scotland news or read in the Mail. They have their agenda's and we all know what that is.

 

Am I happy with my lot? No. Is it perfect? No. But its not as bad as its being pained under the SNP. AT least they try!

 

Next thing is the NHS will slowly get starved of the funds it needs from Westminster, the complaints will keep rolling in and the system will be close to breaking point. Then, when the people have had enough the government will PRIVATISE. Well surprise surprise eh! Just like the everything else, sell it off on the cheap and wash their hands of it.  

 

The Tory way.

 

Edit: The education system? What is REALLY wrong with it? It served me well, my kids are doing OK and as far as I can see, there new schools and school extensions flying up all over the place! Is it those bloody statistics they spoke about on the BBC again?

Edited February 24, 2017 by Pans Jambo

[doctor jambo]

See this Health Service crumbling shite. When has it NOT been crumbling. My mother gave birth to me in an NHS hospital. My Mrs gave birth to my 2 kids in an NHS hospital. An NHS hospital helped my mum beat cancer and continue to monitor it. An NHS operated on my dad. The A&E at the ERI helped me when I needed it & I have just been to the NHS dentist for a check-up this afternoon. Its like living in bloody Syria!

 

Its ALWAYS dying.

 

I dont have a clue what you are on about 'safety'?

 

I grew up in the 70's & 80's when there WAS no economy.

 

Dont believe what you see on BBC Scotland news or read in the Mail. They have their agenda's and we all know what that is.

 

Am I happy with my lot? No. Is it perfect? No. But its not as bad as its being pained under the SNP. AT least they try!

 

Next thing is the NHS will slowly get starved of the funds it needs from Westminster, the complaints will keep rolling in and the system will be close to breaking point. Then, when the people have had enough the government will PRIVATISE. Well surprise surprise eh! Just like the everything else, sell it off on the cheap and wash their hands of it.  

 

The Tory way.

 

Edit: The education system? What is REALLY wrong with it? It served me well, my kids are doing OK and as far as I can see, there new schools and school extensions flying up all over the place! Is it those bloody statistics they spoke about on the BBC again?

THe NHS is in a worse state than ever

IN Ayrshire one large practice has been taken over by the health board with 3-4 on the brink

that's practices closing and folks having NO GP

Even our immigrant GP's are emigrating

Its a workload and pay issue

Though mainly a workload issue

The difficulty is that the demands are spiralling out of control, the complaints are rising and the public are getting more demanding

So GP's are trying to retire as soon as they can, the young Docs are leaving the country, the females are refusing to return to full time work after maternity as doing the job full time is emotionally and physically really hard.

Recently our union did a "stress test " on GP's re anxiety and depression

MOre than 50 % of GP's randomly tested came back as severe anxiety, more than 30 % were clinically depressed.

GP's have higher rates of mental illness than nearly any other profession, and I think it is the highest suicide rate of any profession

Yet are massively less likely to take time off work..........mainly because we can't

Yes the NHS is still functioning- but it is at massive cost to its staff- many of whom are literally destroying their own well being to keep things going for their patients.

I've been NHS for 17 years now, and its deteriorating rapidly

its about to domino

several of my colleagues have jacked it in and left the country or just left their jobs to do something else

Never wondered why there are so few EU Dr's in this country?

[Space Mackerel]

THe NHS is in a worse state than ever

IN Ayrshire one large practice has been taken over by the health board with 3-4 on the brink

that's practices closing and folks having NO GP

Even our immigrant GP's are emigrating

Its a workload and pay issue

Though mainly a workload issue

The difficulty is that the demands are spiralling out of control, the complaints are rising and the public are getting more demanding

So GP's are trying to retire as soon as they can, the young Docs are leaving the country, the females are refusing to return to full time work after maternity as doing the job full time is emotionally and physically really hard.

Recently our union did a "stress test " on GP's re anxiety and depression

MOre than 50 % of GP's randomly tested came back as severe anxiety, more than 30 % were clinically depressed.

GP's have higher rates of mental illness than nearly any other profession, and I think it is the highest suicide rate of any profession

Yet are massively less likely to take time off work..........mainly because we can't

Yes the NHS is still functioning- but it is at massive cost to its staff- many of whom are literally destroying their own well being to keep things going for their patients.

I've been NHS for 17 years now, and its deteriorating rapidly

its about to domino

several of my colleagues have jacked it in and left the country or just left their jobs to do something else

Never wondered why there are so few EU Dr's in this country?

Yet NHS Scotland outperforms all other parts?

[manaliveits105]

Worry not I have seen the lost generation every time Jimmy Crankie is on TV she is speaking to them or carrying them about a nursery or school instead of looking after the NHS /Police Scotland or keeping taxes down .

SNP oot

[Stuart Lyon]

Sm - so why have I just had a letter apologising for not meeting the treatment guarantee time for a small op. Why was I asked to give-up an appointment for someone else? Why did I have to wait 5 months to see a consultant? 

[Space Mackerel]

Sm - so why have I just had a letter apologising for not meeting the treatment guarantee time for a small op. Why was I asked to give-up an appointment for someone else? Why did I have to wait 5 months to see a consultant?

 

Was it life threatening your condition?

[Stuart Lyon]

How do I know ; i'm not a doctor but I am still here.

[doctor jambo]

Yet NHS Scotland outperforms all other parts?

Because Scotland gets disproportionate public spending than rUK, which would stop.

Your only answer to my diatribe is that its OK that the NHS is collapsing and killing its staff, because its happening slower than England.

The "big solution" is, frankly, to de-medicalise a whole load of things

[Space Mackerel]

Because Scotland gets disproportionate public spending than rUK, which would stop.

Your only answer to my diatribe is that its OK that the NHS is collapsing and killing its staff, because its happening slower than England.

The "big solution" is, frankly, to de-medicalise a whole load of things

And this extra money that Scotland gets will cure all problems within the NHS throughout the UK?

[Space Mackerel]

How do I know ; i'm not a doctor but I am still here.

Obviously you're fine then.

Which is a shame as you're a nawbags

[doctor jambo]

Sm - so why have I just had a letter apologising for not meeting the treatment guarantee time for a small op. Why was I asked to give-up an appointment for someone else? Why did I have to wait 5 months to see a consultant? 

When you set targets you do a couple of things

1- you raise the pressure to meet the target

2- people find a way to meet the target in a system of finite resource, which means taking resource from elsewhere

3- you raise expectation in the patients, and anger when their expectations are not met

4- you raise costs by having to pay for people to be seen, privately, by the same doctors you would have seen anyway to meet the target ( which are, in the main, fatuous and vainglorious with the exception of the cancer targets- the rest are not based on clinical need but merely fabricated to play to the masses at election time)

5- you remove clinical independence and need more managers to work out how to hit the targets

 

you attend AE with something trivial - wait 10 hours, you wont come to any harm

[doctor jambo]

And this extra money that Scotland gets will cure all problems within the NHS throughout the UK?

no - the solution is not entirely a fiscal one.

The public have lost all sense of reality about what the NHS can deliver- egged on by politicians of all creed

Hunt? Feckin hate him- painted it as all about wages and the usual BS , and large chunks of the public bought it and turned on the Juniors because they refuse to see that a large part of the problem is, well, the public.......no one seems to be attempting to reduce demand on the NHS.

And that needs to be done.

and quickly

[deesidejambo]

Obviously you're fine then.

Which is a shame as you're a nawbags

Now now!

[westbow]

JX2- the problem is though that we would be entering choppy waters from a feckin whirlpool.

My three kids ( aged 12- 8) have hardly known a "good time " economically. My daughter has lived her whole life in austerity- yet folks want to throw themselves back into something even worse?

Even as it is I get worse off every year ( and that's me on a good salary- god knows what its like for the nurses and suchlike)

I wont vote Indy until such time as it wouldn't leave me crippled

You see this is the crux of it. There are a large amount of people, like me, that would vote Yes if they didn't think it would leave us in a less adventageous position, either individually or as a whole. This is where I distrust the SNP. They would throw the people under the bus in a heartbeat if it meant Independence. I've known Nationalists all my life and it's all they are really focussed on, sure they give lip service to other stuff but that is their number one priority.

[westbow]

As an aside I could easily get on board with independence. The flag above my head means less than nothing to me.

 

However, to go for the change I need to be persuaded the change will result in a benefit. That case has never really been made imo.

Same here. The bloody mindedness of the SNP and Labour who could have worked together and gotten some kind of consensus instead of being at each others throats for an all or nothing, binary result is dumb. A snail pace gradual transfer of power until it was hardly noticable is what will probably happen anyway, it could save us all from another stupid name calling bad tempered referendum.