Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, jambos are go! said: Only a fool would dismiss Anglophobia as a possible cause. I actually take offence to that. I like English people more than some Scots I know. It's a poor argument, I don't think all brexiters are racists, nor would I use that as a reason when debating why folk leave. The English dentist who lives next door to me voted yes. So unless you know individual circumstances I'd stay clear of that argument. Poor. Edited July 5, 2018 by WeeChuck'sHeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: In other words, you can’t or won’t answer. Noted. I'm still waiting for someone to name 3 positive tory policies actions? Asked two days ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, gjcc said: Makes a change from the tories using delaying tactics so the full agenda can’t be discussed. They do this all the time. The upskirting one from a few weeks ago highlights this. They also done this on a discussion about pensions and the bill of human rights. Black has a you tube video on this, explains the archaic system, it's actually an embarrassing system from hundreds of years ago. Sadly all politicians do it to block bills passing through easily, even taking photos up a womens skirt, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: Yes. But I'm struggling to get a correct number of years. The SNP themselves say ten years but that's projecting to 2020. Can't get historical block grant values, although it's been reduced every year for none years either in monetary terms or real terms. I'm not to concerned about the semantics off 2007-2010, seems like splitting hairs and arguing for arguing sakes. What I would say, since Labour got put out and the tories started/ continued austerity the national debt has trebled even after increasing Vat. That was one of my points. The other was, the SNP have tried to offset this. Free prescriptions Bed room tax Free tuition No to trident No to war in syria No to brexit ( economically not looking good) Council tax freeze until this year. Increase tax on highest earners Built more social housing than England Public sector pay cap lifted Completed infrustucture that has benefited Scotlands economy. All more relevant, imo on who or what started austerity 7-10 years ago. The tories tag line has been "all in this together" or some pish, so I cannot fathom how anyone can argue they haven't championed austerity. Nice Brexit Bill to follow. Our credit status has also been down graded on their watch. Fabby stuff from them. Deflection, whataboutery and these gems. “Projecting to 2020” ”Not concerned with the semantics of 2007 to 2010”. So, Tory Austerity - bad, SNP Austerity -semantics. The only thing missing is “you haven’t answered my questions”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 21 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: Yes. But I'm struggling to get a correct number of years. The SNP themselves say ten years but that's projecting to 2020. Can't get historical block grant values, although it's been reduced every year for none years either in monetary terms or real terms. I'm not to concerned about the semantics off 2007-2010, seems like splitting hairs and arguing for arguing sakes. What I would say, since Labour got put out and the tories started/ continued austerity the national debt has trebled even after increasing Vat. That was one of my points. The other was, the SNP have tried to offset this. Free prescriptions Bed room tax Free tuition No to trident No to war in syria No to brexit ( economically not looking good) Council tax freeze until this year. Increase tax on highest earners Built more social housing than England Public sector pay cap lifted Completed infrustucture that has benefited Scotlands economy. All more relevant, imo on who or what started austerity 7-10 years ago. The tories tag line has been "all in this together" or some pish, so I cannot fathom how anyone can argue they haven't championed austerity. Nice Brexit Bill to follow. Our credit status has also been down graded on their watch. Fabby stuff from them. Free prescriptions and tuition for all are actually quite regressive and unsustainable, as is free personal care. The Council Tax freeze is another example of the Holyrood government dictating to local authorities. For a party who's main purpose is the transfer of powers more locally they have a remarkably limited view of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Yes let's blame the SNP for austerity. While we're at it... let's blame them for not having a piss for the lack of a pot. Let's go on to squeal like stuck pigs for having to pay a fiver a week more in tax. There must be a magic money tree somewhere in Scotland. Let's not include it in Scotland's GDP but. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ministry MK2 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: Aye. 80k salary plus £300 a day expenses . What a shame, having to work to a timetable you prepared. Poor English MPS missed the football. Scandalous SNP, working during work time! The horror. Basically adds weight to my intelligence comments above, if you prepare the timetable and want to watch the football, don't schedule work at that time or get folk in that don't want to watch the football. Can't even manage that, but they run the ****ing country. No wonder brexit is a shambles, can't even organise themselves. Howling. Timetable may have been made in advance of England’s scheduled game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ministry MK2 said: Timetable may have been made in advance of England’s scheduled game. If only there was a way to avoid such things. 1 hour ago, MacDonald Jardine said: Free prescriptions and tuition for all are actually quite regressive and unsustainable, as is free personal care. The Council Tax freeze is another example of the Holyrood government dictating to local authorities. For a party who's main purpose is the transfer of powers more locally they have a remarkably limited view of it. Free health and giving everyone a chance to be educated is regressive.... What the **** is brexit then? Things are only unsustainable if you choose other things over them. Such as trident, tax cuts, subsiding low wages, war in Syria, brexitT bills and £1b bribes to keep you in power. Not too mention Heathrow and the £1b plus for repairs to Westminster and the Palace and paying for the House of Lords. Oh, and you get pocket money from Westminster as opposed to full control of finances. Council tax freeze was also bad? I'm out. Had my filll today. Thankfully, speaking to soft no and labour voters is a bit easier. Tories and far right folk are not who we need to convince. Edited July 5, 2018 by WeeChuck'sHeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vladimir of Romanov Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: If only there was a way to avoid such things. Free health and giving everyone a chance to be educated is regressive.... What the **** is brexit then? Things are only unsustainable if you choose other things over them. Such as trident, tax cuts, subsiding low wages, war in Syria, brexitT bills and £1b bribes to keep you in power. Not too mention Heathrow and the £1b plus for repairs to Westminster and the Palace and paying for the House of Lords. Oh, and you get pocket money from Westminster as opposed to full control of finances. Council tax freeze was also bad? I'm out. Had my filll today. Thankfully, speaking to soft no and labour voters is a bit easier. Tories and far right folk are not who we need to convince. Actual tears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said: Deflection, whataboutery and these gems. “Projecting to 2020” ”Not concerned with the semantics of 2007 to 2010”. So, Tory Austerity - bad, SNP Austerity -semantics. The only thing missing is “you haven’t answered my questions”. Projecting to 2020 is what I could find. Not TOO concerned - at least quote correctly. I did spell too-to. If you believe that SNP are a party of austerity, then this conversation is over. It's like watching Davidson dodge and deflect everthing on FMQ. You've went from ridiculous to funny back to ridiculous, so I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: If only there was a way to avoid such things. Free health and giving everyone a chance to be educated is regressive.... What the **** is brexit then? Things are only unsustainable if you choose other things over them. Such as trident, tax cuts, subsiding low wages, war in Syria, brexitT bills and £1b bribes to keep you in power. Not too mention Heathrow and the £1b plus for repairs to Westminster and the Palace and paying for the House of Lords. Oh, and you get pocket money from Westminster as opposed to full control of finances. Council tax freeze was also bad? I'm out. Had my filll today. Thankfully, speaking to soft no and labour voters is a bit easier. Tories and far right folk are not who we need to convince. I'm not a Brexit supporter. I'm also not automatically anti SNP but their record in government is appalling for local democracy, unless "local" means Scotland. I'm instinctively not in favour of tuition fees: I benefited from a university education and it feels wrong denying future generations that right. However, economically it's unsustainable. Similarly there's no need to give the likes of me free prescriptions. It's a worthy idea but again unsustainable. The Council Tax freeze was another example of the SNP's concept of "local" democracy. I'm not saying the idea in itself is a bad one but it denied local authorities the ability to deal with local issues by raising revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: If only there was a way to avoid such things. Free health and giving everyone a chance to be educated is regressive.... What the **** is brexit then? Things are only unsustainable if you choose other things over them. Such as trident, tax cuts, subsiding low wages, war in Syria, brexitT bills and £1b bribes to keep you in power. Not too mention Heathrow and the £1b plus for repairs to Westminster and the Palace and paying for the House of Lords. Oh, and you get pocket money from Westminster as opposed to full control of finances. Council tax freeze was also bad? I'm out. Had my filll today. Thankfully, speaking to soft no and labour voters is a bit easier. Tories and far right folk are not who we need to convince. That council tax freeze wis shocking they should’ve put it up every single year instead of saving us any money! See that small income tax rise that was shocking tae! Putting taxes up to help pay for stuff makes us the pyoor highest taxes part of the U.K.! Actual ragin likes!! you couldn’t make it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: If only there was a way to avoid such things. Free health and giving everyone a chance to be educated is regressive.... What the **** is brexit then? Things are only unsustainable if you choose other things over them. Such as trident, tax cuts, subsiding low wages, war in Syria, brexitT bills and £1b bribes to keep you in power. Not too mention Heathrow and the £1b plus for repairs to Westminster and the Palace and paying for the House of Lords. Oh, and you get pocket money from Westminster as opposed to full control of finances. Council tax freeze was also bad? I'm out. Had my filll today. Thankfully, speaking to soft no and labour voters is a bit easier. Tories and far right folk are not who we need to convince. Don't think the SNP introduced "free health" although I'm sure nippy will try and claim it somehow. As for describing free Uni as "a chance to be educated" ****ing behave yourself. Primary and Secondary education is already free in this country unless you want to pay for your child's education. Further education (University) is a choice not a right imo and should not be totally free. Edited July 5, 2018 by Seymour M Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 minute ago, jack D and coke said: That council tax freeze wis shocking they should’ve put it up every single year instead of saving us any money! See that small income tax rise that was shocking tae! Putting taxes up to help pay for stuff makes us the pyoor highest taxes part of the U.K.! Actual ragin likes!! you couldn’t make it up So the things that the SNP have done bad are- Kept MPs from watching the football during g scheduled work time. The council tax freeze Free prescriptions. Free education. These have been put forward as the bad things they have done or doing They are also, apparently the party for austerity. ****ing bananas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: So the things that the SNP have done bad are- Kept MPs from watching the football during g scheduled work time. The council tax freeze Free prescriptions. Free education. These have been put forward as the bad things they have done or doing They are also, apparently the party for austerity. ****ing bananas. No these are the things you listed as achievements which actually have drawbacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said: Don't think the SNP introduced "free health" although I'm sure nippy will try and claim it somehow. As for describing free Uni as "a chance to be educated" ****ing behave yourself. Primary and Secondary education is already free in this country unless you want to pay for your child's education. Further education (University) is a choice not a right imo and should not be totally free. They ate they only party trying to keep the NHS completely free. No one claimed they introduced it, the tories although did vote again St it se real times. Only rich folk should go to higher education.? You may have a point in the education part, but down south £9k a year makes university quite exclusive and out of reach. Fair enough if you believe in that, I don't. It is certainly not regressive, tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: They ate they only party trying to keep the NHS completely free. No one claimed they introduced it, the tories although did vote again St it se real times. Only rich folk should go to higher education.? You may have a point in the education part, but down south £9k a year makes university quite exclusive and out of reach. Fair enough if you believe in that, I don't. It is certainly not regressive, tho. It is regressive when overwhelmingly those who benefit from it come from families who could afford it anyway. The whole higher education system needs looked at. I wouldn't get to university now on the basis of my CV as it was then, no matter my exam results. And those from better off backgrounds have a greater chance of meeting the criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 23 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: That council tax freeze wis shocking they should’ve put it up every single year instead of saving us any money! See that small income tax rise that was shocking tae! Putting taxes up to help pay for stuff makes us the pyoor highest taxes part of the U.K.! Actual ragin likes!! you couldn’t make it up So let me get this right. Denying locally elected politicians the right to raise money to resolve local issues by raising revenue = giving people money. Raising income tax nationally = resolving problems. My biggest problem with the SNP is that they don't see decision making going any further than Holyrood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: So the things that the SNP have done bad are- Kept MPs from watching the football during g scheduled work time. The council tax freeze Free prescriptions. Free education. These have been put forward as the bad things they have done or doing They are also, apparently the party for austerity. ****ing bananas. The Council Tax Freeze and The Small Business (in fact, small property) Bonus Scheme were austere in their effect. The CT Freeze was the outcome of a failed manifesto claim (see below) based on arithmetic that was, being generous, completely bonkers. The impact was a cut in public expenditure that impacted on council spending and, therefore, loss of services and loss of jobs. None of this was forced on them by Westminster - it was a choice. Turning to Westminster Austerity - isn’t it a strange austerity that has seen an approx £300billion INCREASE in public expenditure since 2010. Public expenditure which will, at the current rate of growth, reach £1trillion by the time of the next scheduled UKPGE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 14 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said: So let me get this right. Denying locally elected politicians the right to raise money to resolve local issues by raising revenue = giving people money. Raising income tax nationally = resolving problems. My biggest problem with the SNP is that they don't see decision making going any further than Holyrood. My point being if they’d raised council tax theyd have got hung for it. They froze it for the whole country and got hung for it. They raise income tax by a tiny amount and pants were pished everywhere. Free prescriptions, hung for it. Free education, hung for it. I’d bet if they abolished both you’d still find fault. My point is it matters not a jot what they do some just look for reasons to condemn regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff the Mince Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, jambos are go! said: Only a fool would dismiss Anglophobia as a possible cause. Absolute shite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: My point being if they’d raised council tax theyd have got hung for it. They froze it for the whole country and got hung for it. They raise income tax by a tiny amount and pants were pished everywhere. Free prescriptions, hung for it. Free education, hung for it. I’d bet if they abolished both you’d still find fault. My point is it matters not a jot what they do some just look for reasons to condemn regardless. And some will praise no matter. I actually agree with the income tax rise. I disagreed with the council tax freeze not because I want to pay more but in principle. Free prescriptions for all is a nonsense. I'm more conflicted on free education but as I posted earlier the whole system needs looked at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said: And some will praise no matter. I actually agree with the income tax rise. I disagreed with the council tax freeze not because I want to pay more but in principle. Free prescriptions for all is a nonsense. I'm more conflicted on free education but as I posted earlier the whole system needs looked at. Agreed some will praise no matter what. I’m not one of them believe me. I’m not an SNP supporter by any means but for me, atm anyway, they are the least worst option for Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: Agreed some will praise no matter what. I’m not one of them believe me. I’m not an SNP supporter by any means but for me, atm anyway, they are the least worst option for Scotland. Fair enough. It's very easy to get entrenched in these debates and ignore the actual issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: In other words, you can’t or won’t answer. Noted. What's the point. I've asked you numerous times for comparisons to the graphs etc... You propagate on here nothing. I'll ask you again, why does a country of Scotlands size and wealth spend £20b more on a country of England's size and wealth. One day soon, every single theft from Scotland will be exposed to the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: They do this all the time. The upskirting one from a few weeks ago highlights this. They also done this on a discussion about pensions and the bill of human rights. Black has a you tube video on this, explains the archaic system, it's actually an embarrassing system from hundreds of years ago. Sadly all politicians do it to block bills passing through easily, even taking photos up a womens skirt, for example. That mp does this every Friday, so things can't be rushed thro. So I wouldn't be too hard on him, he does it for the right reasons. Even tho this time it didn't help. Edited July 5, 2018 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, ri Alban said: That mp does this every Friday, so things can't be rushed thro. So I wouldn't be too hard on him, he does it for the right reasons. Even tho this time it didn't help. Aye, but given the subject there was no need. Some highlights from his voting record. Against Gay marriage Against equal rights of gay folk Voted against laws about human rights Voted against fox hunting ban Voted against a house, well being house ( rented accommodation suitable for living) Votes for reduction in corporate tax Voted against bankers bonuses limits Voted for war in Iraq and Syria Votes for employees exchanging rights for work perks The list is endless The up skirting thing. He also wants to withdraw from the bill of human rights. The boy is knighted as well. I'm sorry I was harsh on him, seems a well rounded, balanced human being. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, ri Alban said: What's the point. I've asked you numerous times for comparisons to the graphs etc... You propagate on here nothing. I'll ask you again, why does a country of Scotlands size and wealth spend £20b more on a country of England's size and wealth. One day soon, every single theft from Scotland will be exposed to the world. Its difficult to to understand your posts at the best of times but it seems that you are suggesting that Scotland puts £20billion more into the Exchequer than it receives by way of all public expenditure through Barnett and other avenues. “Does” = present tense so I’m sure you’ll be able to evidence that claim with something from the most recent accounts. I don’t see that figure anywhere. As for Astroturfing - not fussed about plastic grass. I prefer the real thing for my lawns. Are you giving up roofing for a new career closer to terra firma? You might try contacting IRA at 55 Savushkina St. in St Petersburg about astroturfing. I hear that they have been quite supportive of various secessionist campaigns on these islands. Are you any closer to an answer on what would replace all those jobs reliant on U.K. MoD spending in Scotland should your dream ever come true? You’ve had a few weeks to think about it but don’t rush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 3 hours ago, MacDonald Jardine said: And some will praise no matter. I actually agree with the income tax rise. I disagreed with the council tax freeze not because I want to pay more but in principle. Free prescriptions for all is a nonsense. I'm more conflicted on free education but as I posted earlier the whole system needs looked at. I'd agree, there is a polarisation of the two sides. There is something in between. Prescriptions - far too much is given away. I'd even discuss a Norway style charge for the Gp? Education - yes Council tax freeze was brought in to help with the cost of living, fuel tax, pay freezes vat rise. That has been lifted now. My point was there is money there. You can use it to fully staff the NHS, fire, military, police, schools etc and social!, education polices or you can use it to- Give tax breaks to the very rich and large conpanies Trident War ( which imo is allot like Iraq) Dup bribes. The money is there, the tories choose to spend it on other things than i feel are important. Imo, it is no coincidence we are leaving the EU just as we were advised to bring our state pension in line with other countries and the more stringent tax laws laws that are coming. I also, fundamentally believe Scotland is a country. So as a left of Central person who believes we can take care of our self, SNP, at the moment is my only option. I'm not anti English, I wouldn't want any other country governing us. If you see Scotland as part of the UK and not a country, I fully understand the anti SNP rhetoric, but I can't understand what good, any normal (works, pays rent/ mortgage etc, relays on the NHS and state schools etc) person thinks the Tories are doing well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: Its difficult to to understand your posts at the best of times but it seems that you are suggesting that Scotland puts £20billion more into the Exchequer than it receives by way of all public expenditure through Barnett and other avenues. “Does” = present tense so I’m sure you’ll be able to evidence that claim with something from the most recent accounts. I don’t see that figure anywhere. As for Astroturfing - not fussed about plastic grass. I prefer the real thing for my lawns. Are you giving up roofing for a new career closer to terra firma? You might try contacting IRA at 55 Savushkina St. in St Petersburg about astroturfing. I hear that they have been quite supportive of various secessionist campaigns on these islands. Are you any closer to an answer on what would replace all those jobs reliant on U.K. MoD spending in Scotland should your dream ever come true? You’ve had a few weeks to think about it but don’t rush. The tories have cut back the armed forces every year? The SNP last year or so intervened to save the ship building contracts and steel after they were almost put out by the tories, despite pre indey promises. Several companies will move base after we leave the EU. That Twat, Reese morg will move his own company to Ireland! Land rover are edgy. You seriously suggesting that Scotland won't have enough jobs? You've still not named 3 positive tories actions or policies and the worst the SNP has done is hold back MPs during work and now you want someone to predict the future about jobs in a independent Scotland but aren't arsed about the same thing about leaving the EU. All this despite there actually being economic reports saying that no matter what it wiilll be worse, just a matter of how worse? None of that bothers you, but you are concerned there won't be enough Mod jobs in an independent Scotland? (I'm also pretty sure the SNP have covered that in great detail), unlike the tories and brexit. You must be at it?, c'mon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 32 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: The tories have cut back the armed forces every year? The SNP last year or so intervened to save the ship building contracts and steel after they were almost put out by the tories, despite pre indey promises. Several companies will move base after we leave the EU. That Twat, Reese morg will move his own company to Ireland! should Land rover are edgy. S You seriously suggesting that Scotland won't have enough jobs? You've still not named 3 positive tories actions or policies and the worst the SNP has done is hold back MPs during work and now you want someone to predict the future about jobs in a independent Scotland but aren't arsed about the same thing about leaving the EU. All this despite there actually being economic reports saying that no matter what it wiilll be worse, just a matter of how worse? None of that bothers you, but you are concerned there won't be enough Mod jobs in an independent Scotland? (I'm also pretty sure the SNP have covered that in great detail), unlike the tories and brexit. You must be at it?, c'mon? This is tiresome, you are clearly incapable of reading and comprehension. I will repeat in the vain hope that you might take some of it in. The Tories have cut back the Armed Forces - wrongly but that is starting to be r versed. Just think how many more jobs we might have in Scotland if they hadn’t. The rescue of shipbuilding on the Clyde - starve Fergusons of orders by placing SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT orders for ships in Poland and Germany. Then wait until the eve of the referendum to announce that it was to be saved by the (at that time) SNP Supporter Jim McColl. Then place orders with Fergusons that HAD to go abroad before that. Fishier than the Railway Pier in Oban. Rescue of Steel - a reduction in the Rates Bill when the real culprit was cost of energy (including the renewables top-up). Why not sort it out at a strategic level instead of robbing Councils to pay for it. Are there or are there not significant orders placed with Scottish Yards for the construction of warships? Is the Govan Yard’s order book full with work to keep it busy for 15 years? Will these orders support local steel mills? Does the Faslane/Coulport complex exist? Are people employed there? Is the Navy moving another Submarine Flotilla to Faslane? Is Faslane bring expanded? Does Faslane/Coulport support a significant number of companies and jobs in Scotland? Is Rosyth home to the assembly site for the Carrier Programme? Might it be used for future refits or assembly of Royal Fleet Auxilliaries? Is Lossiemouth to be the home of the new RAF Maritime Patrol Aircraft? Has there been significant investment in infrastructure for support, maintenance, training? Does that support jobs in Moray? Do companies based in Scotland such as Thales, Leonardo and BAe and a host of other engineers and contractors rely heavily on work from the U.K. MoD - not just in Scotland but throughout the U.K.? The SNP on this? Some pretty woolly stuff in the Growth Commission Report on Defence in general but no specifics. There is no way that a Scottish Government could ever hope to afford to replace that level of investment even on 3% of GDP. Nationalists on here - diversion, whataboutery, repeat. Leaving the EU bothers me - a point I have made many times -and for the same reasons; walking away from jobs and business. It does surprise me that you can see this for Brexit but not for Independence. That is what I call blinkered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: This is tiresome, you are clearly incapable of reading and comprehension. I will repeat in the vain hope that you might take some of it in. The Tories have cut back the Armed Forces - wrongly but that is starting to be r versed. Just think how many more jobs we might have in Scotland if they hadn’t. The rescue of shipbuilding on the Clyde - starve Fergusons of orders by placing SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT orders for ships in Poland and Germany. Then wait until the eve of the referendum to announce that it was to be saved by the (at that time) SNP Supporter Jim McColl. Then place orders with Fergusons that HAD to go abroad before that. Fishier than the Railway Pier in Oban. Rescue of Steel - a reduction in the Rates Bill when the real culprit was cost of energy (including the renewables top-up). Why not sort it out at a strategic level instead of robbing Councils to pay for it. Are there or are there not significant orders placed with Scottish Yards for the construction of warships? Is the Govan Yard’s order book full with work to keep it busy for 15 years? Will these orders support local steel mills? Does the Faslane/Coulport complex exist? Are people employed there? Is the Navy moving another Submarine Flotilla to Faslane? Is Faslane bring expanded? Does Faslane/Coulport support a significant number of companies and jobs in Scotland? Is Rosyth home to the assembly site for the Carrier Programme? Might it be used for future refits or assembly of Royal Fleet Auxilliaries? Is Lossiemouth to be the home of the new RAF Maritime Patrol Aircraft? Has there been significant investment in infrastructure for support, maintenance, training? Does that support jobs in Moray? Do companies based in Scotland such as Thales, Leonardo and BAe and a host of other engineers and contractors rely heavily on work from the U.K. MoD - not just in Scotland but throughout the U.K.? The SNP on this? Some pretty woolly stuff in the Growth Commission Report on Defence in general but no specifics. There is no way that a Scottish Government could ever hope to afford to replace that level of investment even on 3% of GDP. Nationalists on here - diversion, whataboutery, repeat. Leaving the EU bothers me - a point I have made many times -and for the same reasons; walking away from jobs and business. It does surprise me that you can see this for Brexit but not for Independence. That is what I call blinkered. The fact that we would remain in the EU, I'd argue there would be more job opportunities in an independant Scotland than a Scotland, with continued austerity, with a shrunk economy as part of the UK outwith the EU. As far as job loss's on being independent, I am unsure why they go hand in hand, many small countries thrive, many without our foundation so I don't know why you would doubt Scotland so much in general. I type this from and abellio owned train. I am not a 100% clued up on the specific sector you have focused on so unable to counter, although the SNP did cover defence, I read about it 4 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 54 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: This is tiresome, you are clearly incapable of reading and comprehension. I will repeat in the vain hope that you might take some of it in. The Tories have cut back the Armed Forces - wrongly but that is starting to be r versed. Just think how many more jobs we might have in Scotland if they hadn’t. The rescue of shipbuilding on the Clyde - starve Fergusons of orders by placing SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT orders for ships in Poland and Germany. Then wait until the eve of the referendum to announce that it was to be saved by the (at that time) SNP Supporter Jim McColl. Then place orders with Fergusons that HAD to go abroad before that. Fishier than the Railway Pier in Oban. Rescue of Steel - a reduction in the Rates Bill when the real culprit was cost of energy (including the renewables top-up). Why not sort it out at a strategic level instead of robbing Councils to pay for it. Are there or are there not significant orders placed with Scottish Yards for the construction of warships? Is the Govan Yard’s order book full with work to keep it busy for 15 years? Will these orders support local steel mills? Does the Faslane/Coulport complex exist? Are people employed there? Is the Navy moving another Submarine Flotilla to Faslane? Is Faslane bring expanded? Does Faslane/Coulport support a significant number of companies and jobs in Scotland? Is Rosyth home to the assembly site for the Carrier Programme? Might it be used for future refits or assembly of Royal Fleet Auxilliaries? Is Lossiemouth to be the home of the new RAF Maritime Patrol Aircraft? Has there been significant investment in infrastructure for support, maintenance, training? Does that support jobs in Moray? Do companies based in Scotland such as Thales, Leonardo and BAe and a host of other engineers and contractors rely heavily on work from the U.K. MoD - not just in Scotland but throughout the U.K.? The SNP on this? Some pretty woolly stuff in the Growth Commission Report on Defence in general but no specifics. There is no way that a Scottish Government could ever hope to afford to replace that level of investment even on 3% of GDP. Nationalists on here - diversion, whataboutery, repeat. Leaving the EU bothers me - a point I have made many times -and for the same reasons; walking away from jobs and business. It does surprise me that you can see this for Brexit but not for Independence. That is what I call blinkered. What I find so surprising is that someone like yourself can be so specific about certain figures and concerns yet vote for a party that- Has/ had no brexit plan. Had an uncosted manifesto. Who's leader did taken part in one live debate pre election. Yet, when it comes to unpicking other parties policies/ plans and when having your own concerns about finance etc you seem very interested and place an importance on the detail. Likewise you call the SNP in holding back parliament shameless but not a peep on you regarding the latest lies scandal. Very strange in deed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 32 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: The fact that we would remain in the EU, I'd argue there would be more job opportunities in an independant Scotland than a Scotland, with continued austerity, with a shrunk economy as part of the UK outwith the EU. As far as job loss's on being independent, I am unsure why they go hand in hand, many small countries thrive, many without our foundation so I don't know why you would doubt Scotland so much in general. I type this from and abellio owned train. I am not a 100% clued up on the specific sector you have focused on so unable to counter, although the SNP did cover defence, I read about it 4 years ago. An independent Scotland in the EU with its biggest market - England - outside. That would be interesting to watch. All these powers then going back across the North Sea - will there be a party at Leith Docks to wave them off? To move on to another point. It is now recognised and admitted by even the SNP’s own economists that independence would come at a cost and that cost would be an austerity that would make current day “austerity” seem like a picnic. Tax rises AND cuts in public spending that might last for up to a “generation”. Something would have to give. If tax is too high then fiscal flight ensues. If spending is cut, jobs would go, wages would stagnate and quality of service would suffer. We have now identified 1 sector, Defence, that would go. What else might follow? What else might stay? The answer is nobody knows, least of all the ones leading us (they hope) on this jolly wheeze. If that was even only a possibility, would you condemn the weakest in society so that you can be governed by fools in Edinburgh for the benefit of Greater Glasgow instead of fools in Westminster for the benefit of London and the SE? Would that be a price worth paying? At what point would you say “Nah, not worth it” or is it independence at any cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: Aye, but given the subject there was no need. Some highlights from his voting record. Against Gay marriage Against equal rights of gay folk Voted against laws about human rights Voted against fox hunting ban Voted against a house, well being house ( rented accommodation suitable for living) Votes for reduction in corporate tax Voted against bankers bonuses limits Voted for war in Iraq and Syria Votes for employees exchanging rights for work perks The list is endless The up skirting thing. He also wants to withdraw from the bill of human rights. The boy is knighted as well. I'm sorry I was harsh on him, seems a well rounded, balanced human being. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: Its difficult to to understand your posts at the best of times but it seems that you are suggesting that Scotland puts £20billion more into the Exchequer than it receives by way of all public expenditure through Barnett and other avenues. “Does” = present tense so I’m sure you’ll be able to evidence that claim with something from the most recent accounts. I don’t see that figure anywhere. As for Astroturfing - not fussed about plastic grass. I prefer the real thing for my lawns. Are you giving up roofing for a new career closer to terra firma? You might try contacting IRA at 55 Savushkina St. in St Petersburg about astroturfing. I hear that they have been quite supportive of various secessionist campaigns on these islands. Are you any closer to an answer on what would replace all those jobs reliant on U.K. MoD spending in Scotland should your dream ever come true? You’ve had a few weeks to think about it but don’t rush. Mod Scotland or oil rigs. Either or I don't really mind. But I'm pretty sure we can build for whamever requires. You do know other countries have mod contracts, now so why not Scotland. Always amazes me how Scotland's exports are available to you but their imports aren't. Kept up the propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 minute ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: What I find so surprising is that someone like yourself can be so specific about certain figures and concerns yet vote for a party that- Has/ had no brexit plan. Had an uncosted manifesto. Who's leader did taken part in one live debate pre election. Yet, when it comes to unpicking other parties policies/ plans and when having your own concerns about finance etc you seem very interested and place an importance on the detail. Likewise you call the SNP in holding back parliament shameless but not a peep on you regarding the latest lies scandal. Very strange in deed. That’s just diversion to avoid discussing the point but where did I say that I voted for the Tories? If you had read posts you will see the regard held for my representatives such as Jenkins, Dewar and Galloway, none of whom are/were Tories. It is my practice to vote for the person I see as best representing the needs of the constituency and if the SNP candidates had bothered to make a case, hebor shee might have been considered but, given she had been in hiding since the previous vote, that was a hard sell. I have been critical of the U.K. Government and I think Brexit is folly. Then again, Brexit is not the preserve of Tories. Corbyn is, at best, ambivalent and the SNP cares little for the EU, instead using Brexit as another pretext. It works both ways on lies and scandal but I’m sure you can point to where you have been critical of the SNP in, for example, the recent revelation about banning (or not) of Fracking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: That’s just diversion to avoid discussing the point but where did I say that I voted for the Tories? If you had read posts you will see the regard held for my representatives such as Jenkins, Dewar and Galloway, none of whom are/were Tories. It is my practice to vote for the person I see as best representing the needs of the constituency and if the SNP candidates had bothered to make a case, hebor shee might have been considered but, given she had been in hiding since the previous vote, that was a hard sell. I have been critical of the U.K. Government and I think Brexit is folly. Then again, Brexit is not the preserve of Tories. Corbyn is, at best, ambivalent and the SNP cares little for the EU, instead using Brexit as another pretext. It works both ways on lies and scandal but I’m sure you can point to where you have been critical of the SNP in, for example, the recent revelation about banning (or not) of Fracking. "Fracking is being banned" is exactly what NS said. Come October it will be. So stop talking pish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: An independent Scotland in the EU with its biggest market - England - outside. That would be interesting to watch. All these powers then going back across the North Sea - will there be a party at Leith Docks to wave them off? To move on to another point. It is now recognised and admitted by even the SNP’s own economists that independence would come at a cost and that cost would be an austerity that would make current day “austerity” seem like a picnic. Tax rises AND cuts in public spending that might last for up to a “generation”. Something would have to give. If tax is too high then fiscal flight ensues. If spending is cut, jobs would go, wages would stagnate and quality of service would suffer. We have now identified 1 sector, Defence, that would go. What else might follow? What else might stay? The answer is nobody knows, least of all the ones leading us (they hope) on this jolly wheeze. If that was even only a possibility, would you condemn the weakest in society so that you can be governed by fools in Edinburgh for the benefit of Greater Glasgow instead of fools in Westminster for the benefit of London and the SE? Would that be a price worth paying? At what point would you say “Nah, not worth it” or is it independence at any cost? I actually think the complete opposite to what you have just said. On every point. Right up to- the union at any cost. Different strikes for different folks. Lol- strokes Edited July 5, 2018 by WeeChuck'sHeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: That’s just diversion to avoid discussing the point but where did I say that I voted for the Tories? If you had read posts you will see the regard held for my representatives such as Jenkins, Dewar and Galloway, none of whom are/were Tories. It is my practice to vote for the person I see as best representing the needs of the constituency and if the SNP candidates had bothered to make a case, hebor shee might have been considered but, given she had been in hiding since the previous vote, that was a hard sell. I have been critical of the U.K. Government and I think Brexit is folly. Then again, Brexit is not the preserve of Tories. Corbyn is, at best, ambivalent and the SNP cares little for the EU, instead using Brexit as another pretext. It works both ways on lies and scandal but I’m sure you can point to where you have been critical of the SNP in, for example, the recent revelation about banning (or not) of Fracking. Fracking will be banned soon, delayed due to an appeal. The SNP are not perfect. I am not with them on some minor policies, however on a macro scale they are the best of a pretty poor bench. It is not diversion, it is just surprising, some might call it contradictory. You hinted at being a tory or a lib dem supporter. Appoligies if you are lib dem, no one deserves to be branded a tory if they are not one. If you are a lib dem, then generally on policies the SNP are close, who knows in an independent Scotland they could even get in power. Would make your anti SNP a bit strange as well tho. Edited July 5, 2018 by WeeChuck'sHeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapper John McIntyre Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: I actually think the complete opposite to what you have just said. On every point. Right up to- the union at any cost. Different strikes for different folks. Lol- strokes Keep your private life out of the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, ri Alban said: "Fracking is being banned" is exactly what NS said. Come October it will be. So stop talking pish. N Sturgeon, October 2017 - “Those who, like me, do not believe that fracking should go ahead in Scotland should welcome the fact that fracking in Scotland is banned.” James Mure QC, representing the Scottish government, then told the court on the first day of the Judicial Review hearing that the concept of an effective ban was a “gloss” and the “language of a press statement” Spin in other words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: I actually think the complete opposite to what you have just said. On every point. Right up to- the union at any cost. Different strikes for different folks. Lol- strokes On every point? So Sturgeon’s own Growth Commission was completely wrong to suggest that independence would come at a cost and that there would be difficult times lasting for as long as a generation. And that would be the best possible gloss they could put on it. Oh well, good luck if the fatal day comes. I hope your job is nice and secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: On every point? So Sturgeon’s own Growth Commission was completely wrong to suggest that independence would come at a cost and that there would be difficult times lasting for as long as a generation. And that would be the best possible gloss they could put on it. Oh well, good luck if the fatal day comes. I hope your job is nice and secure. I attend meetings. There is a certain amount of down playing the finances as if we said things would be all good, folk would be even more sceptical. We do like to remain level headed. Fatal day, strange way for someone to describe being independent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: I attend meetings. There is a certain amount of down playing the finances as if we said things would be all good, folk would be even more sceptical. We do like to remain level headed. Fatal day, strange way for someone to describe being independent. “Even more sceptical” - seems they are right to be sceptical if you have swung from wildly optimistic to “down-playing”. How can anything that your party produce be taken as kosher. The truth is that nobody in the independence movement has much of a clue as to how it would work. That is why the weeks since the publication of the Growth Commission Report have been filled with one diversion or deflection after another. There are too many difficult questions falling out of the report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 6 hours ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: I'd agree, there is a polarisation of the two sides. There is something in between. Prescriptions - far too much is given away. I'd even discuss a Norway style charge for the Gp? Education - yes Council tax freeze was brought in to help with the cost of living, fuel tax, pay freezes vat rise. That has been lifted now. My point was there is money there. You can use it to fully staff the NHS, fire, military, police, schools etc and social!, education polices or you can use it to- Give tax breaks to the very rich and large conpanies Trident War ( which imo is allot like Iraq) Dup bribes. The money is there, the tories choose to spend it on other things than i feel are important. Imo, it is no coincidence we are leaving the EU just as we were advised to bring our state pension in line with other countries and the more stringent tax laws laws that are coming. I also, fundamentally believe Scotland is a country. So as a left of Central person who believes we can take care of our self, SNP, at the moment is my only option. I'm not anti English, I wouldn't want any other country governing us. If you see Scotland as part of the UK and not a country, I fully understand the anti SNP rhetoric, but I can't understand what good, any normal (works, pays rent/ mortgage etc, relays on the NHS and state schools etc) person thinks the Tories are doing well? You know I don't think We're that far apart politically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 5 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: “Even more sceptical” - seems they are right to be sceptical if you have swung from wildly optimistic to “down-playing”. How can anything that your party produce be taken as kosher. The truth is that nobody in the independence movement has much of a clue as to how it would work. That is why the weeks since the publication of the Growth Commission Report have been filled with one diversion or deflection after another. There are too many difficult questions falling out of the report. It'll work out better for Scotland, that's all we need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: N Sturgeon, October 2017 - “Those who, like me, do not believe that fracking should go ahead in Scotland should welcome the fact that fracking in Scotland is being banned.” and you greet about Mundell's words being twisted. James Mure QC, representing the Scottish government, then told the court on the first day of the Judicial Review hearing that the concept of an effective ban was a “gloss” and the “language of a press statement” Spin in other words. "Fracking in Scotland is being banned, End of story. Oct 2017 The effective ban now (through planning) will be finalised this October. I don't know if the nuclear ban will be finalised then too. Can you frack in Scotland? No, because you cannae. Fact. Edited July 6, 2018 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 13 hours ago, Thunderstruck said: “Even more sceptical” - seems they are right to be sceptical if you have swung from wildly optimistic to “down-playing”. How can anything that your party produce be taken as kosher. The truth is that nobody in the independence movement has much of a clue as to how it would work. That is why the weeks since the publication of the Growth Commission Report have been filled with one diversion or deflection after another. There are too many difficult questions falling out of the report. The report was as robust as could expected, unless you could predict the future. If you require a full proof 100% plan, then ofc you won't get it as Change by its very nature cannot be 100%. We would still be in caves if we didn't change, and every change no matter how big or small will be going into the unknown to a degree, as it's change, by it's very nature it cannot be 100%. Guess I just have more faith that Scotland can be successful, many small countries without the foundation we have have proven to be so. More importantly, I want Scotland to run Scotland, not England to run us, and that is ultimately the difference. I want us to lead and forge our own path, not be lead and told what to do. I don't know why anyone would want different for themselves or their country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: The report was as robust as could expected, unless you could predict the future. If you require a full proof 100% plan, then ofc you won't get it as Change by its very nature cannot be 100%. We would still be in caves if we didn't change, and every change no matter how big or small will be going into the unknown to a degree, as it's change, by it's very nature it cannot be 100%. Guess I just have more faith that Scotland can be successful, many small countries without the foundation we have have proven to be so. More importantly, I want Scotland to run Scotland, not England to run us, and that is ultimately the difference. I want us to lead and forge our own path, not be lead and told what to do. I don't know why anyone would want different for themselves or their country. What exactly are "we" told to do? There have been a number of decisions made by Westminster I've disagreed with. Likewise Holyrood. The fact they're Scottish mistakes makes them no more palatable. Edited July 6, 2018 by MacDonald Jardine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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