New Stand: Ongoing work (updated)

[Mid Calder Jambo]

30 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Is it not just the same as the other stands though?

 

It may well be the same as the other stands but that doesn't make it right. I have always sat in the Old Stand as have a good number of older more infirm supporters.  I see them struggle each week on the steep stairways which are totally different to what it was in the past. Personally I think that there will be a fall some time soon and with the current arrangement, the club is opening itself up to litigation.  Don't want that do we, imagine what the EEN would say to that.

[davemclaren]

31 minutes ago, Mid Calder Jambo said:

 

It may well be the same as the other stands but that doesn't make it right. I have always sat in the Old Stand as have a good number of older more infirm supporters.  I see them struggle each week on the steep stairways which are totally different to what it was in the past. Personally I think that there will be a fall some time soon and with the current arrangement, the club is opening itself up to litigation.  Don't want that do we, imagine what the EEN would say to that.

To be fair the club can hardly make the stands less steep. It’s hard to believe it’s less safe than a stand built 100 years ago. ?

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Mid Calder Jambo said:

 

There should be a continuous rail down the middle of the stairs.  These rails  are hopeless.  Have you seen some of the old guys, including me, struggle.

 

Firstly these are not barrier rails as some on here are suggesting - they are grab rails.  They were designed to be as visually unobtrusive as possible - the staircases are not wide enough for a central handrail as you suggest.

 

This type of grab rail has been installed in the other 3 stands, and I am not aware of any previous complaints on JKB.  It should also be noted that the new stand is less steep than the other 3.

 

The issue seems to be that some grab rails are loose - that is an easy fix and not the Armagedon that some on here seem to portray!

[Thomaso]

40 minutes ago, Mid Calder Jambo said:

 

It may well be the same as the other stands but that doesn't make it right. I have always sat in the Old Stand as have a good number of older more infirm supporters.  I see them struggle each week on the steep stairways which are totally different to what it was in the past. Personally I think that there will be a fall some time soon and with the current arrangement, the club is opening itself up to litigation.  Don't want that do we, imagine what the EEN would say to that.

 

A point to consider. Maybe the Club should reserve ST in lower areas for our older supporters with mobility problems.

[Thomaso]

9 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

In this case maybe irrelevant, But if a contractor falsely confirmed their work had been quality controlled they would not only have been liable for rectifying the defect at their cost but also for any consequential costs.

 

What "consequential costs" are you referring to?

[Thomaso]

10 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Sorry I didn't. Almost everyone in my vicinity  leaving on my first visit to the new stand was commenting on the flexible handrails. It should not have needed to be reported.

 

At some point we will have to admit that for our £15m and counting this has not been an unqualified success. From the initial lies about the initial delay on.

 

Aren't we due an update on the revised timetable?. When will the second and third floors be open? When will the police box be trimmed back to eliminate (most) of the restricted views? (It was supposed to be during the winter break)

 

Franny I've been in the construction game for over 35 years.  There is not one major project that my company has worked on where there has not been a volume of defects/snagging items to be rectified.  As such none of these projects could be termed an "unqualified success" according to your benchmark, despite the fact that they all ended up fit for purpose and created the necessary working environment.

 

With regards to completion of the fit out and police box work, you will no doubt be aware that the team on the park has been the priority, therefore finances at the moment were channelled away from the stand completion.

[cheetah]

15 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Firstly these are not barrier rails as some on here are suggesting - they are grab rails.  They were designed to be as visually unobtrusive as possible - the staircases are not wide enough for a central handrail as you suggest.

 

This type of grab rail has been installed in the other 3 stands, and I am not aware of any previous complaints on JKB.  It should also be noted that the new stand is less steep than the other 3.

 

The issue seems to be that some grab rails are loose - that is an easy fix and not the Armagedon that some on here seem to portray!

 

 

Not sure tha'ts the case, they are just really flexible and bend and move a lot when you hold onto them. 

[Thomaso]

16 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Are the ‘barriers’ at the end if rows not just handrails rather than crowd control barriers?

 

They are grab rails not barrier rails.

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Mr Brightside said:

The claim won’t be against them it will be the contractor’s insurance that would be claimed against. Unless the architect or engineer has specified sub-standard materials.

 

If the design is defective then this will be covered by the Architects/Structural Engineers Professional Indemnity Insurance.

 

If the materials, manufacture or installation are defective, then rectification costs will be the responsibility of the Metalwork subcontractor.

[Thomaso]

12 hours ago, Ricardo Shillyshally said:

A bona fide project manager would have, but that discussion was a few hundred pages ago

 

 

We had (and still have) a bona fide Project Manager who has done a fantastic job in the circumstances!

 

As you say this was all fully discussed previously.

[Mr Brightside]

3 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

If the design is defective then this will be covered by the Architects/Structural Engineers Professional Indemnity Insurance.

 

If the materials, manufacture or installation are defective, then rectification costs will be the responsibility of the Metalwork subcontractor.

Yeah, I agree and that is what I said above.

 

However, on review of the photos on this thread, the rusting is probably a result of the installation process rather than the specification.

[jake]

18 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Franny I've been in the construction game for over 35 years.  There is not one major project that my company has worked on where there has not been a volume of defects/snagging items to be rectified.  As such none of these projects could be termed an "unqualified success" according to your benchmark, despite the fact that they all ended up fit for purpose and created the necessary working environment.

 

With regards to completion of the fit out and police box work, you will no doubt be aware that the team on the park has been the priority, therefore finances at the moment were channelled away from the stand completion.

Not quite as long as you but couldn't agree more about snagging etc

[Thomaso]

9 minutes ago, Mr Brightside said:

Yeah, I agree and that is what I said above.

 

However, on review of the photos on this thread, the rusting is probably a result of the installation process rather than the specification.

 

I was referring to the grab rails rather than the rust spots on other metalwork, however the rust problem is not down to the installation - the problem is that the base metal has not been properly galvanised or coated in the factory to prevent rust.

[Mr Brightside]

3 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

I was referring to the grab rails rather than the rust spots on other metalwork, however the rust problem is not down to the installation - the problem is that the base metal has not been properly galvanised or coated in the factory to prevent rust.

Cool, same principle applies then. Have suitable rails been specificied. If yes then it’s the contractors responsibility to resolve.

 

If the metalwork rusting is a manufacturing issue then it’s still the contractors responsibility to resolve. Unless the club bought the materials and told the contractor to use them (ie same process as the seats), but this would be unusual.

[Bull's-eye]

I assumed the grab rails where small so as not to restrict viewing. They are quite "flimsy" but as they are not there to stop a crowd invasion them I'm struggling to see what the issue is.

 

Oh yes rust, that new modern issue that none of us have ever come across before.......ffs

Edited February 20, 2018 by Oliver Twist

[Thomaso]

23 minutes ago, Oliver Twist said:

I assumed the grab rails where small so as not to restrict viewing. They are quite "flimsy" but as they are not there to stop a crowd invasion them I'm struggling to see what the issue is.

 

Oh yes rust, that new modern issue that none of us have ever come across before.......ffs

 

A post I agree with!   

[Mid Calder Jambo]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

To be fair the club can hardly make the stands less steep. It’s hard to believe it’s less safe than a stand built 100 years ago. ?

 

That depends on how you quantify less safe.  If being predominately made of wood and thereby a fire hazard then the old stand was less safe.  If the exit stairs are more steep and less easily manageable by the infirm then in my opinion the new stand is less safe.  Could be subjective but there you go.

[Thomaso]

9 minutes ago, Mid Calder Jambo said:

 

That depends on how you quantify less safe.  If being predominately made of wood and thereby a fire hazard then the old stand was less safe.  If the exit stairs are more steep and less easily manageable by the infirm then in my opinion the new stand is less safe.  Could be subjective but there you go.

 

The steepness of the staircases in the new stand is within regulations and guidelines.  The steepness is also less than the other 3 stands.

 

Wheelchair access/areas/seats are available for the "infirm".  For older fans (like me) I suggest ST seats in lower areas if they have a problem climbing up the staircases..

[Squirt]

We're not half a hard bunch to please eh......

[iwasthere1954]

2 hours ago, Mid Calder Jambo said:

 

It may well be the same as the other stands but that doesn't make it right. I have always sat in the Old Stand as have a good number of older more infirm supporters.  I see them struggle each week on the steep stairways which are totally different to what it was in the past. Personally I think that there will be a fall some time soon and with the current arrangement, the club is opening itself up to litigation.  Don't want that do we, imagine what the EEN would say to that.

Well the Wheatfield has been open for nearly 24 years and that's happened very rarely. Oh and who gives a F----- what the EEN says.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Oliver Twist said:

I assumed the grab rails where small so as not to restrict viewing. They are quite "flimsy" but as they are not there to stop a crowd invasion them I'm struggling to see what the issue is.

 

Oh yes rust, that new modern issue that none of us have ever come across before.......ffs

As one of the older guys I am fortunately still able to manage stairs - in fact they are good exercise. However I do value a handrail as a useful support, and in places where safety is a priority, offshore for example, everyone is encouraged (indeed  required)  to use them.

If the handrail doesn't support me but instead wobbles and moves at the lightest touch it is actually making the stairway less safe because people grab it expecting it to support them. This all seems pretty basic.

As for the rust no-one has said it is a new phenomenon. Just that its appearance on external steelwork after just a few months is disappointing.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Thomaso said:

 

Franny I've been in the construction game for over 35 years.  There is not one major project that my company has worked on where there has not been a volume of defects/snagging items to be rectified.  As such none of these projects could be termed an "unqualified success" according to your benchmark, despite the fact that they all ended up fit for purpose and created the necessary working environment.

 

With regards to completion of the fit out and police box work, you will no doubt be aware that the team on the park has been the priority, therefore finances at the moment were channelled away from the stand completion.

I wasn't aware we had diverted funds from the stand to the player budget. I must have missed that announcement.

What is the state of progress on the other floors of the stand? We had almost hourly updates on your curtain wall and the front of the stand but I have heard nothing on the rest for months.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Thomaso]

3 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I wasn't aware we had diverted funds from the stand to the player budget. I must have missed that announcement.

What is the state of progress on the other floors of the stand? We had almost hourly updates on your curtain wall and the front of the stand but I have heard nothing on the rest for months.

 

You are aware there was an over spend against the original budget. Obviously the Club will need to accrue further revenue to raise money to complete the fit-out.

 

I believe that the plan is to have the fit-out fully complete for the start of next season.

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

You are aware there was an over spend against the original budget. Obviously the Club will need to accrue further revenue to raise money to complete the fit-out.

 

I believe that the plan is to have the fit-out fully complete for the start of next season.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were saying we had diverted funds to the player budget. But we have just run out of money to fund the completion of the stand.

[Thomaso]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were saying we had diverted funds to the player budget. But we have just run out of money to fund the completion of the stand.

 

Both

[Cut The Crap]

40 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

You are aware there was an over spend against the original budget. Obviously the Club will need to accrue further revenue to raise money to complete the fit-out.

 

I believe that the plan is to have the fit-out fully complete for the start of next season.

 

This is a very interesting insight. I wonder when it will be formally communicated to supporters.

[Francis Albert]

16 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Both

So our  spending on players  now exceeds what we can afford from normal revenue? Concerning if so but I am not sure how you would know,

Edited February 20, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Cut The Crap]

I have to say that at this point in time diverting funds from the completion of the stand and straight into the pockets of players and their agents seems a little short sighted to me. 

[davemclaren]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

So our  spending on players  now exceeds what we can afford from normal revenue? Concerning if so but I am not sure how you would know,

Not sure that was what was meant. I took it to mean that ‘normal revenue’ was being diverted to the player budget rather than being used to help the next stages of the stand. I suppose we won’t  get the detail until the next set of accounts. 

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Not sure that was what was meant. I took it to mean that ‘normal revenue’ was being diverted to the player budget rather than being used to help the next stages if the stand. I suppose we win’t get the detail until the next set of accounts. 

 

Correct.

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, Cut The Crap said:

I have to say that at this point in time diverting funds from the completion of the stand and straight into the pockets of players and their agents seems a little short sighted to me. 

Perhaps, but there is a balance to be had between the ongoing running and performance of the day to day business and ongoing capital expenditure. If we hadn’t done that and we had been knocked out of the cup by Hibs...

[Thomaso]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

So our  spending on players  now exceeds what we can afford from normal revenue? Concerning if so but I am not sure how you would know,

 

Yeah nice spin Franny.  Not interested in you playing silly beggars as usual.  Bye.

[Thomaso]

Just now, davemclaren said:

Perhaps, but there is a balance to be had between the ongoing running and performance of the day to day business and ongoing capital expenditure. If we hadn’t done that and we had been knocked out of the cup by Hibs...

 

Correct again Dave.

[Thomaso]

21 minutes ago, Cut The Crap said:

 

This is a very interesting insight. I wonder when it will be formally communicated to supporters.

 

I would imagine when the completion date will be absolutely sure this time!

[Footballfirst]

I seem to recall a recent statement that the financial priority for the moment was the team on the park, but I can't find the reference.  I think it was while the transfer window was still open.

[Thomaso]

14 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I seem to recall a recent statement that the financial priority for the moment was the team on the park, but I can't find the reference.  I think it was while the transfer window was still open.

 

Do we need an official statement for every decision the Club makes?   Personally I'm delighted we spent the money on improving our team, which went a long way to emptying Hibs out the Cup, thus giving the Club and fans a huge lift!

 

If that decision meant parts of the stand fit-out were delayed a couple of months or so - fine by me!!

[davemclaren]

16 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Do we need an official statement for every decision the Club makes?   Personally I'm delighted we spent the money on improving our team, which went a long way to emptying Hibs out the Cup, thus giving the Club and fans a huge lift!

 

If that decision meant parts of the stand fit-out were delayed a couple of months or so - fine by me!!

Couldn't agree more. The club board is there to make these sort of decisions. So far I think they got this one right. 

[Thomaso]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Couldn't agree more. The club board is there to make these sort of decisions. Do far I think they got this one right. 

 

In Budge I trust.

[Francis Albert]

55 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Yeah nice spin Franny.  Not interested in you playing silly beggars as usual.  Bye.

Spin?

[1971fozzy]

57 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Perhaps, but there is a balance to be had between the ongoing running and performance of the day to day business and ongoing capital expenditure. If we hadn’t done that and we had been knocked out of the cup by Hibs...

 

Can you imagine ....................

the club has done a great job considering were we were at the end of the penalty shootout in the L.Cup.

 

if we hadn’t looked at the playing squad and had got knocked out by Hibs it would of been counterproductive.

Edited February 20, 2018 by 1971fozzy

[Bull's-eye]

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

 

Yeah nice spin Franny.  Not interested in you playing silly beggars as usual.  Bye.

 

His lordship Francis is old, like very old, like can't make it upstairs by himself very old, cut him some slack.

[Francis Albert]

41 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Couldn't agree more. The club board is there to make these sort of decisions. So far I think they got this one right. 

Agreed

But this is message board where we discuss these sort of decisions. 

I think it slightly troubling that once again our recruitment policy reduces us to making stop gap adjustments to budgets and exceeding what we can afford from normal revenue streams to get through one game or to the end of the season. Little of the additional spend was about the longer term.

And if the team that beat Celtic in December had played and played in the same way I think we would have beaten Hibs more comfortably than we did.

[Cut The Crap]

50 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Do we need an official statement for every decision the Club makes?   Personally I'm delighted we spent the money on improving our team, which went a long way to emptying Hibs out the Cup, thus giving the Club and fans a huge lift!

 

If that decision meant parts of the stand fit-out were delayed a couple of months or so - fine by me!!

 

The board is happy enough to go into print when it suits them, so in a way they create a rod for their own backs. That said, Footballfirst reminds us that there was at least a passing reference to this in the last update, so fair enough.

 

As for the decision itself, as ever the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. While it was great to beat Hibs, if we end up finishing 6th with no cup, I'll still question whether it was worth it at the expense of moving forward with the stand. On the other hand, if we win the cup, it will be the best decision Dr Budge has ever made. 

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Cut The Crap said:

 

The board is happy enough to go into print when it suits them, so in a way they create a rod for their own backs. That said, Footballfirst reminds us that there was at least a passing reference to this in the last update, so fair enough.

 

As for the decision itself, as ever the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. While it was great to beat Hibs, if we end up finishing 6th with no cup, I'll still question whether it was worth it at the expense of moving forward with the stand. On the other hand, if we win the cup, it will be the best decision Dr Budge has ever made. 

Such is the challenge of leadership. ?

[Thomaso]

4 minutes ago, Cut The Crap said:

 

The board is happy enough to go into print when it suits them, so in a way they create a rod for their own backs. That said, Footballfirst reminds us that there was at least a passing reference to this in the last update, so fair enough.

 

As for the decision itself, as ever the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. While it was great to beat Hibs, if we end up finishing 6th with no cup, I'll still question whether it was worth it at the expense of moving forward with the stand. On the other hand, if we win the cup, it will be the best decision Dr Budge has ever made. 

 

Beating Hibs this time round in the Cup was massive in all sorts of ways - as fully debated at the time.

 

Also if we had not strengthened the team I do not think we would have got in the top 6 which also has big financial implications.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Thomaso

[Cut The Crap]

3 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

 

Beating Hibs this time round in the Cup was massive in all sorts of ways - as fully debated at the time.

 

Yes, prior failures unfortunately left us with no margin for error this year. Still, though, if we reach the end of the season and all we have to show for it is a cup win against Hibs, it will be a poor return in my opinion. As Dave says, though, that's the challenge of leadership. They have rolled the dice; let's see how they fall.

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, Thomaso said:

 

Do we need an official statement for every decision the Club makes?   Personally I'm delighted we spent the money on improving our team, which went a long way to emptying Hibs out the Cup, thus giving the Club and fans a huge lift!

 

If that decision meant parts of the stand fit-out were delayed a couple of months or so - fine by me!!

Who asked for a statement?

 

I certainly made an observation around AGM time that the accounts showed that expenditure on the playing side had been constrained  by spending elsewhere (primarily the stand).  I too welcome a modicum more investment in the playing squad and if that means a slowdown in the fitting out, then so be it.

 

I do however recall something being said that the first team had taken priority in recent weeks (that was a few weeks ago). I haven't a clue if it was or wasn't in an official club statement, only that I couldn't find the reference.

[Thomaso]

15 minutes ago, Cut The Crap said:

 

Yes, prior failures unfortunately left us with no margin for error this year. Still, though, if we reach the end of the season and all we have to show for it is a cup win against Hibs, it will be a poor return in my opinion. As Dave says, though, that's the challenge of leadership. They have rolled the dice; let's see how they fall.

 

Prior to our excellent January signings, IMO the thin squad we had would not have beaten Hibs or finished in the top 6.  That would have spelt disaster for next seasons ST sales.

 

A trip to Hampden, a secure top 6 finish, and a fully completed fit-out of the stand for the start of next season, would say to me the correct decision was made.

[Stuart Lyon]

Thomaso - any idea when the trees for Foundation Plaza will be planted ?

[GavK1012]

3 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I seem to recall a recent statement that the financial priority for the moment was the team on the park, but I can't find the reference.  I think it was while the transfer window was still open.

 

 

You are absolutely spot on...think it was an interview Miss B gave where she conceded that funds earmarked for stand would be used for 1st team short term (January) as she intimated this was the priority as the new seats wouldnt be sold if we neglected the on park product...

 

The obvious poster trying to raise questions re this point is coming across as usual as a total WuM at best or ignorant ill informed so and so to put it mildly at worst....