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#3501 JamboX2

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:03 am

But the governments today are not the same governments that chose to enter the EU or adopt the Euro. Your point just illustrates the fact that countries are now trapped in a system, defined by Germany and a few others, from which it is very difficult (as we are finding) to escape, especially if unlike us your resources are thin and you are dependent on EU subsidies. The Greeks voted for an alternative to austerity measures and huge levels of unemployment but that is no longer as you say "part of the reality" that being in the EU and the Euro allows.
If accurate the polling may reflect the fact that for some countries there is in practice no alternative.


Yet if you listen to Varafoukis and Tspras they at no point wanted out of the euro or EU. What they did was go about their aim the wrong way by threatening default.

#3502 Normthebarman

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 07:25 am

The way I see it is, EU citizens should have the same rights as UK citizens post Brexit. However, it appears the EU want EU citizens to keep the rights they already have. Which in theory could be more than what UK citizens have.

So far, both sides are being a bit rubbish.

#3503 Sraman

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:02 pm

The way I see it is, EU citizens should have the same rights as UK citizens post Brexit. However, it appears the EU want EU citizens to keep the rights they already have. Which in theory could be more than what UK citizens have.

So far, both sides are being a bit rubbish.

 

In this scenario only one side is being a bit rubbish. I'd like to keep the rights I already have as well as have the EU citizens keeping those rights. If the UK doesn't agree to keep the rights of EU citizens it shows that they have plans to erode those rights for UK citizens once out of the EU and that is more than just a bit rubbish.



#3504 Normthebarman

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:21 pm

In this scenario only one side is being a bit rubbish. I'd like to keep the rights I already have as well as have the EU citizens keeping those rights. If the UK doesn't agree to keep the rights of EU citizens it shows that they have plans to erode those rights for UK citizens once out of the EU and that is more than just a bit rubbish.


In an ideal world, I agree. I'd rather not lose rights. But if we give EU citizens the same rights they have now, they'll have more than Brits post Brexit. The main one that sticks out is that if, say, a French citizen wanted to bring their spouse over post Brexit, they can no problem. A Brit on the other hand, would need to earn a certain amount before the spouse can come over. That doesn't make sense.

#3505 jake

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:13 pm

But we kept thousands of low paid bank workers in jobs. Prevented mass negative equity forcing families into the street. Prevented a collapse of spend by government and consumers and it's economic effects... we employed a Keynesian response. A leftist response. Bailout.

We did it with rail, coal, health, iron etc in 1945.

We did it with BMC, Leyland, BA and shipbuilding in the 70s.

We then bailed out finance in the 00s.

All facist?


Fair trade. Equity in dealings. Debt relief. International development. Are the keys to develop the developing world. To get them up to a better standard. Generally these are aims of the EU atm in it's trade policy.

Where's the evidence of an anti-austerity theme in the UK bar Corbyn? Where's the political leadership in Brexit not arguing "within our means"?

Brexit makes us poorer. Not richer. Insular. Less international. It's a retreat not an advance.


Indeed it is. As an internationalist i believe if we develop the institutions where nations can come together to debate, trade, discuss and build a better world then there's less suffering. Less needless starvation and poverty and more prosperity and more for all.

It's optimistic and ambitious. But it's in part what the EU does for Europe. Perhaps if we pushed a stronger UN, African Union etc across the globe we'd see more good and unity and less bad and division.



No we really haven't.
These banks we have bailed out are continually cheapening their labour costs but rarely cutting bonuses.
The other industries you say we financed was at the time beneficial to the many and not the few.
Do you really believe the motive was anything other than to protect the already powerful?

Look jambo i kinda am on the same side as you i just am really cynical.
Think we will never agree on the best way forward.
I would like the break up of both unions europe and uk.

You dont.

We end up going round in circles .
At least it hasnt ended abusively.

Right now for me the conflict in Syria has the potential to overshadow all our worries.

#3506 alfajambo

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:44 am

Do you see that Great Repeal Bill?  Will it repeal UK legislation that transposed into UK law all the employment protections contained in EU directives?  You know, things like protection of fixed-term, part-time and agency workers?  Things like the directives on working time, breaks and minimum holidays?  Things like protection of pregnant workers, provision of parental leave, and the requirement not to discriminate on many demographic grounds, including race, religion, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

 

If those protections for workers are to be removed, with what will they be replaced?  And how long will that take to get done?

How is it possible for the UK to leave the EU within 2 years? Ten perhaps, if it actually  happens.

I don't subscribe to the EU thesis, and although I voted to leave, I believe that a divisive Referendum was never the way forward.

What we really needed was an elected government that had the consensus of the people to leave.

Now we find ourselves in the middle of a constitutional crisis. A government with no majority, largely made up from those who wanted to stay, tasked with the job of implementing our departure. What could possibly  go wrong?



#3507 Dusk_Till_Dawn

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 10:30 am

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

#3508 Seymour M Hersh

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:11 am

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

 

And there's the rub!  And a prime reason for getting out.



#3509 Jambo-Jimbo

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:35 am

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

 

Or an organisation which re-runs referendums (France & Ireland) until it gets the result it wants, not exactly the most democratic thing the EU has done. 



#3510 southcap

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:36 am

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

They aren't stopping us from leaving though, they are trying to get us to leave on the best terms for themselves. The same thing as we are doing. The thing is, during a game of poker, if you don't hold a good hand, you better be good at playing the table.

 

Theresa May and Boris Johnson are holding our shite hand are going to have to play the table.

 

Something tells me we are aren't going to finish in the money.


Edited by southcap, 12 July 2017 - 11:37 am.


#3511 Normthebarman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 02:25 pm

Or an organisation which re-runs referendums (France & Ireland) until it gets the result it wants, not exactly the most democratic thing the EU has done.


Surely that was the French and Irish governments responsible for that?

#3512 Jambo-Jimbo

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:22 pm

Surely that was the French and Irish governments responsible for that?

 

Apparently not, as it is widely accepted that it was the EU which forced Ireland to hold another vote on the Lisbon Treaty, because the EU didn't like the result of the first vote.

https://www.theguard...d-lisbon-treaty

 

http://www.telegraph...bon-treaty.html



#3513 Cade

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 03:43 pm

Shree months in the clink for a Viscount who went on a racist rant after Brexit.

 

https://www.theguard...-of-gina-miller

 

:jjyay:



#3514 Maple Leaf

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 04:59 pm

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.  

 

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

 

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?



#3515 Boris

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 05:59 am

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.  
 
But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.
 
What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?


I think we are then in the realms of May's "no deal is better than a bad deal". The scenario that the Govt hasn't planned for yet.

#3516 ManMoth

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 06:29 am

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?


Then britain will leave the EU with no agreement in place and people like me who live in the EU will be shitting it.

#3517 Doogz

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 07:02 am

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.  

 

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

 

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?

 

Assuming the EU & UK agree then the deadline can be extended.



#3518 Cade

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:05 pm

https://www.theguard...eople-smuggling

 

:scenes:

 

:gok:



#3519 jake

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 08:24 pm

https://www.theguard...eople-smuggling

:scenes:

:gok:



Is it just me that thinks this story although interesting is just a tad desperate .
Why are you posting it on a brexit thread?

#3520 elvoys

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 08:50 pm

https://www.buzzfeed...mn38#.al4axORW0


Very surprising especially with Mays capitulation. A very British se se of 'get in with it'

Maybe it was Brexit which bolstered the Lab vote. Lib Dems must be thinking what have they done appointing Cable.

#3521 IMac

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:07 pm

https://www.buzzfeed...mn38#.al4axORW0


Very surprising especially with Mays capitulation. A very British se se of 'get in with it'

Maybe it was Brexit which bolstered the Lab vote. Lib Dems must be thinking what have they done appointing Cable.


Complete opposite to the poll released last week. Fake news.

#3522 Ulysses

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:23 pm

DGyUSITXcAIUYKo.jpg



#3523 Trapper John McIntyre

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:26 pm

DGyUSITXcAIUYKo.jpg

Feeling the heat in the Republic are you Uly? You may find this article interesting:

 

http://effiedeans.bl...-never.html?m=1



#3524 Ulysses

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:28 pm

Feeling the heat in the Republic are you Uly? You may find this article interesting:

 

http://effiedeans.bl...-never.html?m=1

 

Britain will do exactly what we expect it to do, no more and no less.

 

In the meantime, no narrow parochialism for me.  I'll leave that to the likes of.........  :thumbsup:



#3525 Trapper John McIntyre

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:36 pm

Britain will do exactly what we expect it to do, no more and no less.

 

In the meantime, no narrow parochialism for me.  I'll leave that to the likes of.........  :thumbsup:

 

I hope you don't mean me, dear.



#3526 Ulysses

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:08 pm

I hope you don't mean me, dear.

 

Ah now, you know I'd never dream of denying a Hearts supporter the chance to live in hope.   :thumbsup:



#3527 John Findlay

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:06 am

Despite the overall result of the referendum and the current UK government rhetoric. I can see the UK remaining in the EU.

#3528 Jambo-Jimbo

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:24 pm

Sky News just ran a piece about the Irish Border question.

 

The EU wants it to pretty much stay the same way it is, no checks, no physical border etc,however if your not in the customs union then under EU law you must have custom checks which means border checks.

 

Little wonder things are so confusing, when the EU contradicts it's own laws with what it wants.



#3529 JamboX2

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:38 pm

Sky News just ran a piece about the Irish Border question.

The EU wants it to pretty much stay the same way it is, no checks, no physical border etc,however if your not in the customs union then under EU law you must have custom checks which means border checks.

Little wonder things are so confusing, when the EU contradicts it's own laws with what it wants.


There's an open border with non-EU Norway and EU Sweden. The EU is not contradicting anything. The UK govt is failing to engage because it really has no idea what it wants to do.

#3530 Geoff Kilpatrick

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:42 pm

There's an open border with non-EU Norway and EU Sweden. The EU is not contradicting anything. The UK govt is failing to engage because it really has no idea what it wants to do.

Mostly because Norway is in the single market and not the customs union.

Why the UK isn't targeting a similar deal is baffling.

#3531 JamboX2

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:56 pm

Mostly because Norway is in the single market and not the customs union.

Why the UK isn't targeting a similar deal is baffling.


European Court of Justice.

This will destroy the Tories for a generation.

#3532 Jambo-Jimbo

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:12 pm

There's an open border with non-EU Norway and EU Sweden. The EU is not contradicting anything. The UK govt is failing to engage because it really has no idea what it wants to do.

 

https://www.irishtim...table-1.3180460

 

The EU is insisting upon an open border between the North & South, but under the EU's own rules that can't happen, that is a contradiction on the EU's part is it not?



#3533 JamboX2

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:34 pm

https://www.irishtim...table-1.3180460

The EU is insisting upon an open border between the North & South, but under the EU's own rules that can't happen, that is a contradiction on the EU's part is it not?


Under the EU's rules there are open borders with non-EU states. It is dependent on the non-EU state striking a deal which allows this to happen. Therefore it is not contradictory.

I'd argue the UK should be the one insistent on this as it is one of the corner stones of the Good Friday Agreement.

#3534 Jambo-Jimbo

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 05:46 pm

Under the EU's rules there are open borders with non-EU states. It is dependent on the non-EU state striking a deal which allows this to happen. Therefore it is not contradictory.

I'd argue the UK should be the one insistent on this as it is one of the corner stones of the Good Friday Agreement.

 

Which the UK has said time and time and time again that no one wants a hard border after Brexit.

 

I assume the non-EU states you refer to are Norway & Switzerland, both of whom are in the single market and therefore have an open border with the rest of the EU, as part of that agreement.

 

At present the UK will not be in either the single market nor the customs union, so the Norwegian or Swiss model's are not applicable, but we'll just have to wait and see what deal is thrashed out.







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