Brexit?

[JamboX2]

Trade unions and the labour movement took that role.

Unions which themselves had their role in society marginalised and their rights stamped upon by British right-wing governments. And who are all pro-EU because of things which their members get like the working time directive, health and safety, freedom to work across 27 other nations, social chapter rights and much more through EU laws, treaties and directives.

[Ulysses]

Yes. Very.

 

No national court need respect decisions of the ECJ. You can simply pay the penalty and move on. Italy did when it broke state aid rules and nationalised it's steel industry.

 

The idea of primacy of EU law only applies where you have national laws which breach EU law (which is crafted by national governments working together on the Commission). The UK courts in the Factortame case set out how this applies. It's then refined in later cases.

 

It is BRITISH courts who apply EU law in all parts of Britain. The laws they're applying are made by elected British governments, MEPs and our Commissioners at the EU level and therefore have our democratic consent.

 

It's all a consensual. It's all legitimate.

 

It's just wrong to say that the ECJ re-writes our laws. It's jurisdiction os advisory. The cases it gets from the UK go there with leave (approval) of UK courts to the ECJ.

 

But reading that post, you make it look like national legislatures and courts can operate within the jurisdiction of EU law and the European Court of Justice without compromising their own legal systems and the rule of law.

 

You'd nearly think from reading your post that this is exactly what the EU's members have done for years.

 

You'd nearly think from reading your post that this is how Norway, Iceland and in particular Switzerland have managed this for years, without anyone suggesting that their legal systems or the rule of law was being undermined.

 

You'd nearly think the UK's Brexit Minister was right not to be losing too much sleep over the EU's "demands".

 

I wonder are you on to something....?

[jake]

It serves the people of Europe. It does so because it's run by the 27 member states governments. Who are all democratically elected.

 

How can you not see that there is no great conspiracy behind it.

 

You've failed to engage with my post and jumped further down the rabbit hole of some grand plan.

 

The social chapter forces British business to provide certain employment rights they never wanted to - paternity leave, maternity leave pay, paid holidays. What's bad about that?

 

UK governments up till Blair never consented or bothered with those rights for me and you. What interests do they serve?

Did it serve Greece?

Do you ignore the publicly stated intentions of the leadership in regards to national democracy?

 

The interests of the powerful are in truth met.

If the uk voted all its meps as reformers where would that leave us?

Yet if the UK votes all it mps as socialist outside the EU its seat at the top table of world trade eliminates the middle man of the EU.

It allows the uk unfettered trade and allows the uk to manipulate it own economy.

Much like an independent Scotland.

Trade will not suffer as business takes precedent in a capitalist system.

In fact trade and employment will prosper.

 

 

Lets not forget how much wealth is generated in relative terms.

And lets not forget the belligerence from the EU is down to self interest and not in any way linked to citizens rights.

 

Oh dear i forgot german french dutch business is so much nicer.

 

As for blair please jambox2 do not quote a guy who prays for war.

Hes no labour man.

A career politician suited to the EU .

[Ulysses]

Unions which themselves had their role in society marginalised and their rights stamped upon by British right-wing governments. And who are all pro-EU because of things which their members get like the working time directive, health and safety, freedom to work across 27 other nations, social chapter rights and much more through EU laws, treaties and directives.

 

Do you see that Great Repeal Bill?  Will it repeal UK legislation that transposed into UK law all the employment protections contained in EU directives?  You know, things like protection of fixed-term, part-time and agency workers?  Things like the directives on working time, breaks and minimum holidays?  Things like protection of pregnant workers, provision of parental leave, and the requirement not to discriminate on many demographic grounds, including race, religion, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

 

If those protections for workers are to be removed, with what will they be replaced?  And how long will that take to get done?

[Unknown user]

I think someone's dogma just got run over by their karma.

 

 

I missed that one

[JamboX2]

Do you see that Great Repeal Bill? Will it repeal UK legislation that transposed into UK law all the employment protections contained in EU directives? You know, things like protection of fixed-term, part-time and agency workers? Things like the directives on working time, breaks and minimum holidays? Things like protection of pregnant workers, provision of parental leave, and the requirement not to discriminate on many demographic grounds, including race, religion, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

 

If those protections for workers are to be removed, with what will they be replaced? And how long will that take to get done?

I would imagine the GRB will repeal the European Communities Act 1973 and then set out transitionary positions. Every member state has to somehow give effect to EU directives etc. Generally this is done by way of secondary or primary legislation at present.

 

I would imagine that a series of Acts will come to "plug" the gaps or reapply certain parts.

 

What will be interesting on employment rights is will they go further or repeal their extent.

 

The issue that the UK worker faces is an Act of Parliament is only effective for as long as sunsequent legislation does not affect it's terms. So the guarantees of the social chapter are to be blown to the winds of political expediency.

[frankblack]

I would imagine the GRB will repeal the European Communities Act 1973 and then set out transitionary positions. Every member state has to somehow give effect to EU directives etc. Generally this is done by way of secondary or primary legislation at present.

 

I would imagine that a series of Acts will come to "plug" the gaps or reapply certain parts.

 

What will be interesting on employment rights is will they go further or repeal their extent.

 

The issue that the UK worker faces is an Act of Parliament is only effective for as long as sunsequent legislation does not affect it's terms. So the guarantees of the social chapter are to be blown to the winds of political expediency.

 

The Tories are unlikely to be able to change anything relating to workers rights due to losing their majority.  I doubt the DUP would support those types of policies.

 

[Don Dan]

It maybe any future deal with the EU would involve matching any employment and manfacturing laws and regulations whilst retaining or gaining sovereignty over them in the process.

[JamboX2]

The Tories are unlikely to be able to change anything relating to workers rights due to losing their majority. I doubt the DUP would support those types of policies.

 

Not just about now but 10 years down the line etc.

[jake]

This paragon of workers rights the EU.

Does anyone realise the conditions it set trade unions in Greece as part of its bail out.

Has there been a single prosecution on the working time directive.

[JamboX2]

This paragon of workers rights the EU.

Does anyone realise the conditions it set trade unions in Greece as part of its bail out.

Has there been a single prosecution on the working time directive.

You do realise the Greek government imposes the austerity and its people didn't want to leave either the EU or Euro aye?

[jake]

These measures are also in place in portugal and other countries in the EU.

Ignoring their social charter for new fiscal pacts.

Trade union and worker bashing is not just a uk government trait.

Lets not forget who drew up the single market and currency.

It was not some kind of democratic council for the good of the people.

It was multi national companies.

 

Workers rights were fought and gained by yep you guessed it workers.

Trade unions were cajoled along with the social charter.

Just watch that be increasingly ignored as austerity grips the EU.

 

If you want a government that gives people rights then vote for a party that offers that.

If you dont believe we can gain that as part of the uk vote independent.

But dont tell me the EU gave workers their rights.

That accolade belongs to men and women who fought for them and not some fat cat who will strip it away to protect big business.

[jake]

You do realise the Greek government imposes the austerity and its people didn't want to leave either the EU or Euro aye?

 

You are aware of the level of intimidation experienced by political figures involved in this.

You are aware as a labour man the draconian anti trade union and the communist type rules of people being able to attend union meetings.

You are aware of the subsequent votes which rejected the austerity measures but which were in fact steepened by the greek govt after intimidation.

The threats to personal safety.

 

You are aware the debt is now paid by you and i so that german banks did not take the hit.

Are you fully aware of the facts aye?

 

Its all out there its not hidden just not reported that much.

[jake]

And no i do not watch or use infowars.

 

I was accused of this on the Syrian thread as well .

 

Despite posting evidence that show we are mislead .

Sames happening with the myth of the EU.

Banks propped up bigger economies backed up all at the expense of the poorer nations.

Yet the left defends this.

Sorry the so called left.

[JamboX2]

These measures are also in place in portugal and other countries in the EU.

Ignoring their social charter for new fiscal pacts.

Trade union and worker bashing is not just a uk government trait.

Lets not forget who drew up the single market and currency.

It was not some kind of democratic council for the good of the people.

It was multi national companies.

 

Workers rights were fought and gained by yep you guessed it workers.

Trade unions were cajoled along with the social charter.

Just watch that be increasingly ignored as austerity grips the EU.

 

If you want a government that gives people rights then vote for a party that offers that.

If you dont believe we can gain that as part of the uk vote independent.

But dont tell me the EU gave workers their rights.

That accolade belongs to men and women who fought for them and not some fat cat who will strip it away to protect big business.

What are you on about?! We are leaving the EU and imposing austerity when there's really less and less need. The Portuguese, Spainish and Greeks are all in the euro. The comparison ends there with the UK imo.

 

Added to that all have democratically elected governments who have been elected to enact austerity policies or at the least are pro-euro and pro-EU.

 

The chapter rights are unaffected by austerity. They are a baseline.

 

So there's no big business conspiracy. It's called democracy and democratic consent.

 

You are right - many rights were won by unions. But the social chapter gave universal legal effect to these so that there was no difference between self-employed and employed, between young and old based on contracts and between men and women (ie paternity leave). Most importantly it's a universal safety net across the EU so you can't undercut your economic competitors by slashing workers rights on the bonfire of small government.

 

Multinationals did not draw up the euro. In fact companies stand to make more trading various currencies than operating with one currency for all.

 

Fair enough - your side won. We are leaving. But honestly cut the crap amd conspiracy theories Jake. Try a rational look at this stuff and read primary sources. You may be surprised. The EU was by no means perfect but we've opted for an odd way forward by leaving.

[JamboX2]

And no i do not watch or use infowars.

 

I was accused of this on the Syrian thread as well .

 

Despite posting evidence that show we are mislead .

Sames happening with the myth of the EU.

Banks propped up bigger economies backed up all at the expense of the poorer nations.

Yet the left defends this.

Sorry the so called left.

Banks were bailed out because of they went under thousands of people would've ended up on the streets. Thousands more in dole queues. Thousands thrown into destitution. The economic crisis was a failure of domestic government regulation and a lack of cross-border regulations to prevent a sub-prime bubble in America causing RBS to go under and Greek national debt to be called in.

 

If we had more global laws on this. More global and regional cooperation you'd kill the ability of multi-nationals to avoid tax, play fast and loose and trade speculatively with people's livelihoods.

 

Interestingly the UK governments since 2010 have not been in favour of regulating big business. Less regulation for banks than the EU and US. Opposing the Tobin Tax and the EU banking regulatory authority. Christ, we had banks fiddling Libor rate and did little to prevent it in future.

 

So stop saying the EU is a soft touch. Increasingly the multinational giants are getting richer than some nations in the West. They can only be regulated and monitored by international agencies and bodies. Not nation states.

 

Brexit was backed by big businesses who stand to make money by leaving the EU, by ex-investment bankers like Farage, neo-Thatcherites like Redwood and Bone and by those wanting a low tax island off the coast of Europe. So tell me how it's false left to oppose these types?

[jake]

What are you on about?! We are leaving the EU and imposing austerity when there's really less and less need. The Portuguese, Spainish and Greeks are all in the euro. The comparison ends there with the UK imo.

 

Added to that all have democratically elected governments who have been elected to enact austerity policies or at the least are pro-euro and pro-EU.

 

The chapter rights are unaffected by austerity. They are a baseline.

 

So there's no big business conspiracy. It's called democracy and democratic consent.

 

You are right - many rights were won by unions. But the social chapter gave universal legal effect to these so that there was no difference between self-employed and employed, between young and old based on contracts and between men and women (ie paternity leave). Most importantly it's a universal safety net across the EU so you can't undercut your economic competitors by slashing workers rights on the bonfire of small government.

 

Multinationals did not draw up the euro. In fact companies stand to make more trading various currencies than operating with one currency for all.

 

Fair enough - your side won. We are leaving. But honestly cut the crap amd conspiracy theories Jake. Try a rational look at this stuff and read primary sources. You may be surprised. The EU was by no means perfect but we've opted for an odd way forward by leaving.

 

Ahh the good old "you're a conspiracy nut"

 

Its not about me winning anything .

You know i cant post on the Syrian thread about the latest findings as i was banned.

After being trolled i bit .

Even though i posted evidence that was factual i was still called that by those who in fact posted rubbish.

I get things wrong a lot but please dont be lazy and didmiss me as a conspiracy nut.

The single market and currency were drawn up by big business and a tory delight.

If you wish for me to provide links thats no problem.

If you wish for any links to any of ghe points raised no problem.

I can assure you not one will come from infowars.

[jake]

Banks were bailed out because of they went under thousands of people would've ended up on the streets. Thousands more in dole queues. Thousands thrown into destitution. The economic crisis was a failure of domestic government regulation and a lack of cross-border regulations to prevent a sub-prime bubble in America causing RBS to go under and Greek national debt to be called in.

 

If we had more global laws on this. More global and regional cooperation you'd kill the ability of multi-nationals to avoid tax, play fast and loose and trade speculatively with people's livelihoods.

 

Interestingly the UK governments since 2010 have not been in favour of regulating big business. Less regulation for banks than the EU and US. Opposing the Tobin Tax and the EU banking regulatory authority. Christ, we had banks fiddling Libor rate and did little to prevent it in future.

 

So stop saying the EU is a soft touch. Increasingly the multinational giants are getting richer than some nations in the West. They can only be regulated and monitored by international agencies and bodies. Not nation states.

 

Brexit was backed by big businesses who stand to make money by leaving the EU, by ex-investment bankers like Farage, neo-Thatcherites like Redwood and Bone and by those wanting a low tax island off the coast of Europe. So tell me how it's false left to oppose these types?

 

Yes and the EU defended by the govenor of the bank of England.

 

Or a list of plentiful rich and powerful who support the EU.

 

There are plenty on both sides of the political spectrum who are for and against.

So it annoys me when the left wet their knickers defending the EU.

 

It is an organisation thats set up for big business.

Its economically unviable.

And will fail but not before it drains the poor.

[AlphonseCapone]

Do you see that Great Repeal Bill? Will it repeal UK legislation that transposed into UK law all the employment protections contained in EU directives? You know, things like protection of fixed-term, part-time and agency workers? Things like the directives on working time, breaks and minimum holidays? Things like protection of pregnant workers, provision of parental leave, and the requirement not to discriminate on many demographic grounds, including race, religion, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

 

If those protections for workers are to be removed, with what will they be replaced? And how long will that take to get done?

Ulysses, not really about the EU but when did you start following Hearts and how did it come about?

[jake]

Mario Dhragi European Central Bank when interviewed said Europes social contract is dead.

And the policies now being pursued by the EU will only dismantle its welfare state.

 

The EU is in fact being ran now by technocrats.

 

The labour party have a real chance to make sure that protection of workers rights is guarenteed in the coming years.

The hung parliament is their chance.

Lets see if they and their members want to ensure that.

[scott herbertson]

Do you see that Great Repeal Bill?  Will it repeal UK legislation that transposed into UK law all the employment protections contained in EU directives?  You know, things like protection of fixed-term, part-time and agency workers?  Things like the directives on working time, breaks and minimum holidays?  Things like protection of pregnant workers, provision of parental leave, and the requirement not to discriminate on many demographic grounds, including race, religion, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

 

If those protections for workers are to be removed, with what will they be replaced?  And how long will that take to get done?

 

 

The repeal Bill itself will not remove anything

 

As the Beeb puts it:

 

"All existing EU legislation will be copied across into domestic UK law to ensure a smooth transition on the day after Brexit."

 

However afterwards we can change it, and that's when the trouble will start.....

[Ulysses]

The repeal Bill itself will not remove anything

 

As the Beeb puts it:

 

"All existing EU legislation will be copied across into domestic UK law to ensure a smooth transition on the day after Brexit."

 

However afterwards we can change it, and that's when the trouble will start.....

 

Gotcha, thanks.  I wonder is that connected with the legislative devices the UK has used up to now to transpose EU directives into national law?  Maybe the "Great Repeal Bill" is actually a "Great Transposition Bill".

 

In any case there is a lot of worker protection that derives directly from EU legislation.  A lot of the measures were put in place in UK law by the first two Blair governments, but they were EU measures to begin with.  I imagine the Conservatives would be happy to shred quite a bit of it. Ironically, they'd probably use the excuse of Brexit and some vaguely-defined requirement for workers to be more flexible and competitive.

[Ulysses]

Ulysses, not really about the EU but when did you start following Hearts and how did it come about?

 

If it's OK with you I'd prefer to stick to the topic, so if you're really curious you could take the question offline and I'll see what I can do to answer it.

 

I can tell you one thing for sure - It wasn't the EU that inspired me.

[JamboX2]

Gotcha, thanks. I wonder is that connected with the legislative devices the UK has used up to now to transpose EU directives into national law? Maybe the "Great Repeal Bill" is actually a "Great Transposition Bill".

 

In any case there is a lot of worker protection that derives directly from EU legislation. A lot of the measures were put in place in UK law by the first two Blair governments, but they were EU measures to begin with. I imagine the Conservatives would be happy to shred quite a bit of it. Ironically, they'd probably use the excuse of Brexit and some vaguely-defined requirement for workers to be more flexible and competitive.

No. Never. Liam Fox, Phil Hammond, David Davis and Bojo would never sell the working mans rights for a good deal with the USA for fake cheese, chemicaled meat and processed veg...

[JamboX2]

Yes and the EU defended by the govenor of the bank of England.

 

Or a list of plentiful rich and powerful who support the EU.

 

There are plenty on both sides of the political spectrum who are for and against.

So it annoys me when the left wet their knickers defending the EU.

 

It is an organisation thats set up for big business.

Its economically unviable.

And will fail but not before it drains the poor.

A blinkered view ignoring the reality. The euro is stronger than the pound. The major EU economies are recording growth. The EU is popular across its members.

 

But we're leaving.

 

EFTA is the best we can hope for.

[jake]

A blinkered view ignoring the reality. The euro is stronger than the pound. The major EU economies are recording growth. The EU is popular across its members.

 

But we're leaving.

 

EFTA is the best we can hope for.

 

Ok x2.

We will see.

I hope it doesn't capitulate as it will mean hard times for many.

But i expect the next year to see financial disaster for Europe.

Even if by some miracle this is avoided the technocrats will impose austerity to protect German banks.

[JamboX2]

Ok x2.

We will see.

I hope it doesn't capitulate as it will mean hard times for many.

But i expect the next year to see financial disaster for Europe.

Even if by some miracle this is avoided the technocrats will impose austerity to protect German banks.

You've advocated allowing banks to go under with blissfully ignoring the history of the 20th century when that happens.

 

You've repeatedly, on here, for a few years said the EU will fall apart. It's not and looks like it'll get stronger.

 

History teaches us things. One is unfettered and full blown economic crises cause huge amounts of pain, suffering and political upheaval. The other is a divided Europe is a powderkeg.

 

The EU has helped keep the peace by creating lasting economic interdependency. Both are good for all concerned.

[Francis Albert]

A blinkered view ignoring the reality. The euro is stronger than the pound. The major EU economies are recording growth. The EU is popular across its members.

 

But we're leaving.

 

EFTA is the best we can hope for.

I am not sure the 20% total unemployed and 40% young unemployed in many parts of Southern Europe would share your view of the strength of the EU economy. The strength of the Euro is a big part of their problem, the currency being subsrtantially.over-valued for the weaker economies because of the strength of the German economy.

[jake]

You've advocated allowing banks to go under with blissfully ignoring the history of the 20th century when that happens.

 

You've repeatedly, on here, for a few years said the EU will fall apart. It's not and looks like it'll get stronger.

 

History teaches us things. One is unfettered and full blown economic crises cause huge amounts of pain, suffering and political upheaval. The other is a divided Europe is a powderkeg.

 

The EU has helped keep the peace by creating lasting economic interdependency. Both are good for all concerned.

 

No i did not advocate it.

I said that because banks were not allowed to fail at the taxpayers expense meant that capitalism did not happen therefore we live in a fascist state.

The fact that the poorest now pay for this bailout of the very rich is indeed a repeat of history.

 

Oh and when im talking the poorest jambo im not talking british poor .

Im talking starving poor .

If we with all our comforts face austerity what then for those people.

 

Ive not said anything thats not there to be seen.

Ive explained the ticking time bomb of bad debt in italian finances.

 

Ive got news for you the world is full of suffering political upheavel and war.

Mostly with our governments hands behind controlled by those with the real power.

 

Where did you say you were a labour man ?

 

Honestly.

[JamboX2]

No i did not advocate it.

I said that because banks were not allowed to fail at the taxpayers expense meant that capitalism did not happen therefore we live in a fascist state.

The fact that the poorest now pay for this bailout of the very rich is indeed a repeat of history.

But we kept thousands of low paid bank workers in jobs. Prevented mass negative equity forcing families into the street. Prevented a collapse of spend by government and consumers and it's economic effects... we employed a Keynesian response. A leftist response. Bailout.

 

We did it with rail, coal, health, iron etc in 1945.

 

We did it with BMC, Leyland, BA and shipbuilding in the 70s.

 

We then bailed out finance in the 00s.

 

All facist?

 

Oh and when im talking the poorest jambo im not talking british poor .

Im talking starving poor .

If we with all our comforts face austerity what then for those people.

Fair trade. Equity in dealings. Debt relief. International development. Are the keys to develop the developing world. To get them up to a better standard. Generally these are aims of the EU atm in it's trade policy.

 

Where's the evidence of an anti-austerity theme in the UK bar Corbyn? Where's the political leadership in Brexit not arguing "within our means"?

 

Brexit makes us poorer. Not richer. Insular. Less international. It's a retreat not an advance.

 

Ive not said anything thats not there to be seen.

Ive explained the ticking time bomb of bad debt in italian finances.

 

Ive got news for you the world is full of suffering political upheavel and war.

Mostly with our governments hands behind controlled by those with the real power.

 

Where did you say you were a labour man ?

 

Honestly.

Indeed it is. As an internationalist i believe if we develop the institutions where nations can come together to debate, trade, discuss and build a better world then there's less suffering. Less needless starvation and poverty and more prosperity and more for all.

 

It's optimistic and ambitious. But it's in part what the EU does for Europe. Perhaps if we pushed a stronger UN, African Union etc across the globe we'd see more good and unity and less bad and division.

[JamboX2]

I am not sure the 20% total unemployed and 40% young unemployed in many parts of Southern Europe would share your view of the strength of the EU economy. The strength of the Euro is a big part of their problem, the currency being subsrtantially.over-valued for the weaker economies because of the strength of the German economy.

In part you're right. But that is a failure of national government to adapt economies to the new reality they chose.

 

It also fails to ignore polling in these nations on support for the EU.

[Francis Albert]

In part you're right. But that is a failure of national government to adapt economies to the new reality they chose.

 

It also fails to ignore polling in these nations on support for the EU.

But the governments today are not the same governments that chose to enter the EU or adopt the Euro. Your point just illustrates the fact that countries are now trapped in a system, defined by Germany and a few others, from which it is very difficult (as we are finding) to escape, especially if unlike us your resources are thin and you are dependent on EU subsidies. The Greeks voted for an alternative to austerity measures and huge levels of unemployment but that is no longer as you say "part of the reality" that being in the EU and the Euro allows.

If accurate the polling may reflect the fact that for some countries there is in practice no alternative.

[Francis Albert]

 

Double post

[JamboX2]

But the governments today are not the same governments that chose to enter the EU or adopt the Euro. Your point just illustrates the fact that countries are now trapped in a system, defined by Germany and a few others, from which it is very difficult (as we are finding) to escape, especially if unlike us your resources are thin and you are dependent on EU subsidies. The Greeks voted for an alternative to austerity measures and huge levels of unemployment but that is no longer as you say "part of the reality" that being in the EU and the Euro allows.

If accurate the polling may reflect the fact that for some countries there is in practice no alternative.

Yet if you listen to Varafoukis and Tspras they at no point wanted out of the euro or EU. What they did was go about their aim the wrong way by threatening default.

[Norm]

The way I see it is, EU citizens should have the same rights as UK citizens post Brexit. However, it appears the EU want EU citizens to keep the rights they already have. Which in theory could be more than what UK citizens have.

 

So far, both sides are being a bit rubbish.

[Sraman]

The way I see it is, EU citizens should have the same rights as UK citizens post Brexit. However, it appears the EU want EU citizens to keep the rights they already have. Which in theory could be more than what UK citizens have.

 

So far, both sides are being a bit rubbish.

 

In this scenario only one side is being a bit rubbish. I'd like to keep the rights I already have as well as have the EU citizens keeping those rights. If the UK doesn't agree to keep the rights of EU citizens it shows that they have plans to erode those rights for UK citizens once out of the EU and that is more than just a bit rubbish.

[Norm]

In this scenario only one side is being a bit rubbish. I'd like to keep the rights I already have as well as have the EU citizens keeping those rights. If the UK doesn't agree to keep the rights of EU citizens it shows that they have plans to erode those rights for UK citizens once out of the EU and that is more than just a bit rubbish.

In an ideal world, I agree. I'd rather not lose rights. But if we give EU citizens the same rights they have now, they'll have more than Brits post Brexit. The main one that sticks out is that if, say, a French citizen wanted to bring their spouse over post Brexit, they can no problem. A Brit on the other hand, would need to earn a certain amount before the spouse can come over. That doesn't make sense.

[jake]

But we kept thousands of low paid bank workers in jobs. Prevented mass negative equity forcing families into the street. Prevented a collapse of spend by government and consumers and it's economic effects... we employed a Keynesian response. A leftist response. Bailout.

 

We did it with rail, coal, health, iron etc in 1945.

 

We did it with BMC, Leyland, BA and shipbuilding in the 70s.

 

We then bailed out finance in the 00s.

 

All facist?

 

 

Fair trade. Equity in dealings. Debt relief. International development. Are the keys to develop the developing world. To get them up to a better standard. Generally these are aims of the EU atm in it's trade policy.

 

Where's the evidence of an anti-austerity theme in the UK bar Corbyn? Where's the political leadership in Brexit not arguing "within our means"?

 

Brexit makes us poorer. Not richer. Insular. Less international. It's a retreat not an advance.

 

 

Indeed it is. As an internationalist i believe if we develop the institutions where nations can come together to debate, trade, discuss and build a better world then there's less suffering. Less needless starvation and poverty and more prosperity and more for all.

 

It's optimistic and ambitious. But it's in part what the EU does for Europe. Perhaps if we pushed a stronger UN, African Union etc across the globe we'd see more good and unity and less bad and division.

 

No we really haven't.

These banks we have bailed out are continually cheapening their labour costs but rarely cutting bonuses.

The other industries you say we financed was at the time beneficial to the many and not the few.

Do you really believe the motive was anything other than to protect the already powerful?

 

Look jambo i kinda am on the same side as you i just am really cynical.

Think we will never agree on the best way forward.

I would like the break up of both unions europe and uk.

 

You dont.

 

We end up going round in circles .

At least it hasnt ended abusively.

 

Right now for me the conflict in Syria has the potential to overshadow all our worries.

[Sidelight]

Do you see that Great Repeal Bill?  Will it repeal UK legislation that transposed into UK law all the employment protections contained in EU directives?  You know, things like protection of fixed-term, part-time and agency workers?  Things like the directives on working time, breaks and minimum holidays?  Things like protection of pregnant workers, provision of parental leave, and the requirement not to discriminate on many demographic grounds, including race, religion, disability, age, sex and sexual orientation.

 

If those protections for workers are to be removed, with what will they be replaced?  And how long will that take to get done?

How is it possible for the UK to leave the EU within 2 years? Ten perhaps, if it actually  happens.

I don't subscribe to the EU thesis, and although I voted to leave, I believe that a divisive Referendum was never the way forward.

What we really needed was an elected government that had the consensus of the people to leave.

Now we find ourselves in the middle of a constitutional crisis. A government with no majority, largely made up from those who wanted to stay, tasked with the job of implementing our departure. What could possibly  go wrong?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

 

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

 

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

[Seymour M Hersh]

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

 

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

 

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

 

And there's the rub!  And a prime reason for getting out.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

 

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

 

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

 

Or an organisation which re-runs referendums (France & Ireland) until it gets the result it wants, not exactly the most democratic thing the EU has done. 

[southcap]

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

 

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

 

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

They aren't stopping us from leaving though, they are trying to get us to leave on the best terms for themselves. The same thing as we are doing. The thing is, during a game of poker, if you don't hold a good hand, you better be good at playing the table.

 

Theresa May and Boris Johnson are holding our shite hand are going to have to play the table.

 

Something tells me we are aren't going to finish in the money.

[Norm]

Or an organisation which re-runs referendums (France & Ireland) until it gets the result it wants, not exactly the most democratic thing the EU has done.

Surely that was the French and Irish governments responsible for that?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Surely that was the French and Irish governments responsible for that?

 

Apparently not, as it is widely accepted that it was the EU which forced Ireland to hold another vote on the Lisbon Treaty, because the EU didn't like the result of the first vote.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/2437817/Nicolas-Sarkozy-Ireland-must-vote-again-on-EU-Lisbon-treaty.html

[Cade]

Shree months in the clink for a Viscount who went on a racist rant after Brexit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/13/viscount-jailed-for-offering-money-for-killing-of-gina-miller

 

[Maple Leaf]

The EU are proper on the offensive at the moment. Turning the screw.

 

This is just my personal view but I don't see Brexit happening. Far too complicated for the UK to sort out in the set timeframe.

 

Personally I'll be happy if it doesn't, although it doesn't reflect well on the EU if it's effectively an organisation you can't get out of.

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.  

 

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

 

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?

[Boris]

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.  

 

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

 

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?

I think we are then in the realms of May's "no deal is better than a bad deal". The scenario that the Govt hasn't planned for yet.

[Unknown user]

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.

 

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

 

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?

Then britain will leave the EU with no agreement in place and people like me who live in the EU will be shitting it.

[Doogz]

I have no skin in this matter, so please consider me as just a casual onlooker.  

 

But I read in the paper this morning that the EU chief negotiator is taking a hard-line with the UK, and saying that if the UK doesn't live up to it's commitments in Europe, which amount to "tens of billions" of euros, then there is no point in discussing anything.

 

What happens if the negotiations get bogged down and no agreement is reached by the March 2019 deadline?

 

Assuming the EU & UK agree then the deadline can be extended.