Brexit?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Nonsense.

 

Well, if we're being strictly accurate then 'Westminster' is the phrase used to cloak rampant xenophobia.

[jake]

Hey Jake,

 

The UK will still trade with the EU, it is just on what terms. If freedom of movement is the sticking point, we will end up with a worse deal. Overseas investors will leave and relocated within the EU. The value of our exports will drop, as we will have less to export, and our goods may be less enticing due to tariffs, therefore making them more expensive. (as I understandit anyway!)

 

Now, the flip side is, as you say, other countries export to us so it makes sense to strike a deal that suits everyone.

 

Which them brings you back to square one. That deal was called the EU.

 

But something will have to give. It is either immigration or trade. And it looks like it will be trade.

 

Why do I want an independent Scotland? Well, I'm fed up with the UK political system. It is undemocratic and unlikely to change. The EU referendum brought up a lot about being told what to do by unelected persons, about "taking back" control. The UK system is, to me undemocratic, FPTP not a fair electoral system imo and in areas unaccountable (House of Lords, Head of State).

 

If the UK wants to change, then maybe, but it feels to me that their is an insular mentality developing, nominally British, but looks like a little englander mentality to me. And for that reason, I'm out!

 

The EU in its original format to make trade easier etc was a good thing.

The drive for political and monetary union is not imo.

 

I too voted for independence.

For reasons similar to why i voted brexit.

 

As for the UK being insular and the little englander being the prominant mood .

I disagree strongly.

In fact i think the uk can be definitely put in a country whose culture has welcomed embraced and has been enriched by other cultures.

Lately there has been tensions.

Like it or not there has been uncontrolled and importantly unplanned iimigration.

Especially in parts of england.

 

I agree the house of lords fptp does not equate with me either.

But that doesn't mean i want to accept a system that replaces on elite with the other.

Independence from london to give that sovereignty away to Brussels doez not make sense to me.

[XB52]

Simple. A hatred of the English.

when all else fails, blame racism. A sure sign you have lost the argument (well apart from with Aussieh as I doubt my 3-year old grandson could lose an argument with him)

[Chester™]

Will metric be dropped, Back to ft and inches?

The metric system thats been used since before we joined the Common Market?

[Boris]

The EU in its original format to make trade easier etc was a good thing.

The drive for political and monetary union is not imo.

 

I too voted for independence.

For reasons similar to why i voted brexit.

 

As for the UK being insular and the little englander being the prominant mood .

I disagree strongly.

In fact i think the uk can be definitely put in a country whose culture has welcomed embraced and has been enriched by other cultures.

Lately there has been tensions.

Like it or not there has been uncontrolled and importantly unplanned iimigration.

Especially in parts of england.

 

I agree the house of lords fptp does not equate with me either.

But that doesn't mean i want to accept a system that replaces on elite with the other.

Independence from london to give that sovereignty away to Brussels doez not make sense to me.

 

IMO, immigration isn't the issue, the EU isn't the issue.  Both are simply targets to deflect from the real issue which has been misgovernment.

 

Thatcherism/neoliberalism/monetarism/free market economics, whatever you want to call it, is to blame.  Chronic underfunding by the state on housing, health, eduction etc etc has led us to where we are.

A failure to invest in manufacturing, infrastructure, industry hasn't helped either.

 

And I'm sorry, but all this "giving away sovereignty to Brussels" is complete nonsense.  The UK is (was) represented at every level, either directly by election, or by nomination by our elected government at Westminster.  

[aussieh]

Or like the EU political elite except no one voted them in.

Just dont get how you think independence is good for Scotland but bad for the uk.

You make the same arguments as project fear did pre indy vote against brexit.

And then the same arguments as brexit for scottish independence.

 

Its fekin hilarious watching the snp brainwashed.

Aw Stockholm has a hold of another one.

A wee shame.

 

 

I'm not arguing anything other than Scottish Indy in the EU is better than the oppression(politically &Economically) of the UK.

 

I'm pretty sure England will be fine.

[aussieh]

The metric system thats been used since before we joined the Common Market?

72

[aussieh]

when all else fails, blame racism. A sure sign you have lost the argument (well apart from with Aussieh as I doubt my 3-year old grandson could lose an argument with him)

Not face to face he couldnae.

 

A bit like you.

[aussieh]

Well, if we're being strictly accurate then 'Westminster' is the phrase used to cloak rampant xenophobia.

is it?

[Chester™]

72

Mid 60s though parts had been used much earlier than that.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

is it?

 

It is by you, big man.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Not face to face he couldnae.

 

A bit like you.

 

 

Will the three-year-old take up your challenge?

[elvoys]

Will there be any pearl clutchers left in five, never mind ten years to say 'oh the horror! we should have stayed!'? I very much doubt it. It will be treated like a dodged bullet, just like the Euro is now. The continent is splitting at the seems and we will be glad we got out and got our house in order first with a fairly sensible government.

 

Austria, Holland and maybe Italy are the key dominoes imo. France will depend largely on whether they can continue to stave of more attacks like Notre Dame at the wknd but even its centrists like Sarkozy are having to go more insular and will likely want to revamp the United States of Germany model. 

[Cade]

Simple. A hatred of the English.

Simple. A hatred of the Westminster system, our undemocratic second house, unelected head of state, blatant cronyism, elitism, erosion of our rights and corruption.

[reaths17]

I'm just glad GB was here to help hold the fort as the price of the thing that was gonna run/underpin our economy collapsed,it's just as well didn't get independence before the collapse, having to take the begging bowls to the EU/Germany would have been costly to the people of Scotland.

[jake]

I'm just glad GB was here to help hold the fort as the price of the thing that was gonna run/underpin our economy collapsed,it's just as well didn't get independence before the collapse, having to take the begging bowls to the EU/Germany would have been costly to the people of Scotland.

 

If they think londons coct cuts were bad they should try living under berlins.

Then theyd know as the Greeks have found out that your parliament cannot do what they want.

Theyd find put about cronyism elitism and unelected heads of E U telling their democratically elected govt how to run the country.

[jake]

Simple. A hatred of the Westminster system, our undemocratic second house, unelected head of state, blatant cronyism, elitism, erosion of our rights and corruption.

 

Yet you bemoan the brexit vote and all of the above applies to the EU.

[Thunderstruck]

So democratic, no EU citizens resident here, or 16 &17 allowed the vote.

We have had two referendums where those making the decisions selected (or extended) a franchise that they thought would best suit their objectives. That was their right and, in both cases, it made little difference.

 

Collectively, we voted, firstly, to remain in the UK and, secondly, to leave EU.

 

That's democracy (in so far as referendums are "democratic") so suck it up Buttercup.

[aussieh]

 

Will the three-year-old take up your challenge?

Too busy eating a big 99 cone that id buy him to argue. While I have a nice talk and a beer with a fellow Granddad.

No arguing.

 

Jkb on the other hand.

[aussieh]

We have had two referendums where those making the decisions selected (or extended) a franchise that they thought would best suit their objectives. That was their right and, in both cases, it made little difference.

 

Collectively, we voted, firstly, to remain in the UK and, secondly, to leave EU.

 

That's democracy (in so far as referendums are "democratic") so suck it up Buttercup.

Why do non Scots resident in Scotland have more right to democracy than EU citizens resident in the UK?.

I'm sure their vote would have cast a remain result, just like in the Indyref.

[aussieh]

Can I ask.

What if the UK governments brexit deal includes free movement?

 

 

There will be carnage.

 

 

Personally I think they're trying to delay it long enough for people to forget and say "Feck it".

[jake]

Can I ask.

What if the UK governments brexit deal includes free movement?

 

 

There will be carnage.

 

 

Personally I think they're trying to delay it long enough for people to forget and say "Feck it".

 

Its not even been 3 months.

Freedom of movement may well be kept.

Dont think carnage will happen but may face a backlash in the next election.

 

That may or may not see a party gain whose mandate was less immigration.

If part of the EU our hands are tied.

 

You know taking control like scottish independence.

[Boris]

Its not even been 3 months.

Freedom of movement may well be kept.

Dont think carnage will happen but may face a backlash in the next election.

 

That may or may not see a party gain whose mandate was less immigration.

If part of the EU our hands are tied.

 

You know taking control like scottish independence.

 

Yes, but if freedom of movement is kept, and a party wins a general election on an anti-immigration mandate i.e. stop freedom of movement, then the trade deal that freedom of movement is linked to (access to single market) would no longer exist and would have to be renegotiated, back to square one.

 

And our hands are not tied if part of the EU.  We have a say in it, we appoint commissioners, we have a veto.  Or we did.

[aussieh]

Its not even been 3 months.

Freedom of movement may well be kept.

Dont think carnage will happen but may face a backlash in the next election.

 

That may or may not see a party gain whose mandate was less immigration.

If part of the EU our hands are tied.

 

You know taking control like scottish independence.

I'm all for freedom of movement, but the England voted to stop it.

 

You know the controller of Scotland.

At least we'd have a say,by you know taking control like Scottish independence.

Folk thinking staying in a union that allows Scotland to rack up costs to the extent of a ?15b deficit is a good thing, well.

[jake]

I'm all for freedom of movement, but the England voted to stop it.

 

You know the controller of Scotland.

At least we'd have a say,by you know taking control like Scottish independence.

Folk thinking staying in a union that allows Scotland to rack up costs to the extent of a ?15b deficit is a good thing, well.

 

I voted out both referendums.

[jake]

Yes, but if freedom of movement is kept, and a party wins a general election on an anti-immigration mandate i.e. stop freedom of movement, then the trade deal that freedom of movement is linked to (access to single market) would no longer exist and would have to be renegotiated, back to square one.

 

And our hands are not tied if part of the EU. We have a say in it, we appoint commissioners, we have a veto. Or we did.

 

If the deal struck included freedom of movement and the uk electorate reject that then that is democracy in action.

If you have a better way to decide how it should work lets hear it.

Also if you look at the demographics of the brexit vote it appears that northern England voted to get us out.

An area of the country historically shat on by governments of both parties.

Why should they care if people have freedom of movement.

Why shouls they care what middle class guardian readers think especially as they are dismissed as thick racist plebs.

Who i may add the left have advocated ignoring.

Describing their votes as that of plebs.

And people wonder why their collective vote has swung to the right.

They have a similar mood to scotland rejecting the parties who have let them down for a swing to nationalism.

Yet the english nationalists are racists but we scottish ones are all good.

[Boris]

If the deal struck included freedom of movement and the uk electorate reject that then that is democracy in action.

If you have a better way to decide how it should work lets hear it.

Also if you look at the demographics of the brexit vote it appears that northern England voted to get us out.

An area of the country historically shat on by governments of both parties.

Why should they care if people have freedom of movement.

Why shouls they care what middle class guardian readers think especially as they are dismissed as thick racist plebs.

Who i may add the left have advocated ignoring.

Describing their votes as that of plebs.

And people wonder why their collective vote has swung to the right.

They have a similar mood to scotland rejecting the parties who have let them down for a swing to nationalism.

Yet the english nationalists are racists but we scottish ones are all good.

 

I don't deny that the working classes have been left behind and that is a consequence of the way politics has developed within the main political parties.

 

There is a strong leftist argument for leaving the EU, and one that I am slightly sympathetic too, however the real force for leaving is from the free trade right.  Immigration is an issue used to get people onside.  Like the ?350m for the NHS red herring.

 

If these people (the free trade right) stay in power, the working class are finished.  So there may not be immigrants, but don't expect a "dividend" back for your community.

[jake]

I don't deny that the working classes have been left behind and that is a consequence of the way politics has developed within the main political parties.

 

There is a strong leftist argument for leaving the EU, and one that I am slightly sympathetic too, however the real force for leaving is from the free trade right. Immigration is an issue used to get people onside. Like the ?350m for the NHS red herring.

 

If these people (the free trade right) stay in power, the working class are finished. So there may not be immigrants, but don't expect a "dividend" back for your community.

 

The working class are already finished in the sense that there is no voice for them.

A vacuum thats readily filled by the right.

The left are to busy/dismissive of the "plebs".

The left in this country ignored the concerns of northern england.

I say the left.

Coffee drinking wine and cheese islington left.

Comfortable with no pressures felt frim immigration.

Dismissive of anyone questioning the infrastructure to support uncontrolked or unplanned migration as racist plebs.

 

I remember when socialists were against supporting things like the EU .

Set up to make life easier for big buisiness.

Not as claimed to afford working people rights.

The last labour government did more for low paid in this country than the EU and they were all about big buisiness.

[jake]

Btw not my community but i remember they got feked same as scotland did.

They have never recovered.

Yet you have nationalists come on here and describe them collectively as thick racists .

They understand the politics fine.

But the bbc and other news outlets will show you folk talking shite to paint a picture.

Funny how the much makigned bbc are quoted after te accusations levelled .

 

Hypocrisy is astounding

[aussieh]

Can I ask a reasonable question?.

 

If during the Brexit negotiations a deal is struck for Scotland to remain, and the UK government vetos it.

Hypothetical, I know, but what then?

[aussieh]

We're still in, what's keeping them.

[reaths17]

Can I ask a reasonable question?.

 

If during the Brexit negotiations a deal is struck for Scotland to remain, and the UK government vetos it.

Hypothetical, I know, but what then?

as you already know the people of Scotland voted to stay part of the UK, that includes the government.

 

Hypothetically....

 

 

if a deal is struck then democratically, scotland would have a vote on the deal. whether we can accept the vote of the people after this is the big problem, in an undemocratic way the seperatists will probably try to steamroll it through without a vote.

[IronJambo]

Can I ask a reasonable question?.

 

If during the Brexit negotiations a deal is struck for Scotland to remain, and the UK government vetos it.

Hypothetical, I know, but what then?

Saying it's hypothetical doesn't make it a reasonable question. Everyone's already had their vote. Such an event would have to involve Scotland declaring independence at the same time. Maybe if Scotland was already independent.....oh hang, that votes already been had as well hasn't it!

 

For your hypothetical question to have merit and even be considered, our country would need to dispell and go against two democratic and clear cut referendum results.

[aussieh]

Saying it's hypothetical doesn't make it a reasonable question. Everyone's already had their vote. Such an event would have to involve Scotland declaring independence at the same time. Maybe if Scotland was already independent.....oh hang, that votes already been had as well hasn't it!

 

For your hypothetical question to have merit and even be considered, our country would need to dispell and go against two democratic and clear cut referendum results.

Oh well my Mrs was right. You'll all bow and take it right up your arse, as per usual, stockholmers are all wee willing sheep.

 

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

[jake]

Oh well my Mrs was right. You'll all bow and take it right up your arse, as per usual, stockholmers are all wee willing sheep.

 

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

 

 

So your mrs is a rocket inaw

[reaths17]

Oh well my Mrs was right. You'll all bow and take it right up your arse, as per usual, stockholmers are all wee willing sheep.

 

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

stfu you got beat long live the union, if you canny bare to watch pull your see you jimmy hat doon a bit

[aussieh]

So your mrs is a rocket inaw

I'll accept towards me Jake?

 

Just as well you've the same name as my middle boy.

[aussieh]

stfu you got beat long live the union, if you canny bare to watch pull your see you jimmy hat doon a bit

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

Avatar is that a premonition for GB

[aussieh]

inaw

Is this your new phone for Scot/brits.

[southcap]

Hold on, since when did the EU hold any genuine sovereignty over the uk?

[jake]

Hold on, since when did the EU hold any genuine sovereignty over the uk?

 

Its supreme court over rules our courts.

Id say the power to make the laws of the land gives you sovereignty.

[jake]

Hold on, since when did the EU hold any genuine sovereignty over the uk?

 

Id also point to what happened in portugal.

A member state the same as us.

[jake]

I'll accept towards me Jake?

 

Just as well you've the same name as my middle boy.

Aussie.

I genuinely apologise for that.

Shouldnt have brought your wife into it.

Sorry.

 

 

 

Now back to abusing each other

[southcap]

Its supreme court over rules our courts.

Id say the power to make the laws of the land gives you sovereignty.

Can you give me examples when the EU supreme court has overruled our courts against the will of our politicians and population?

[jake]

Can you give me examples when the EU supreme court has overruled our courts against the will of our politicians and population?

 

Whether they have or have not their decision is final.

I will try to find if any.

 

Do you know about what happened in Portugal?

[southcap]

Whether they have or have not their decision is final.

I will try to find if any.

 

Do you know about what happened in Portugal?

Nope, fire away.

[jake]

Can you give me examples when the EU supreme court has overruled our courts against the will of our politicians and population?

 

55 times british ministers have objected to eu directives.

55 times they've been over ruled.

Not looked at courts yet.

[aussieh]

Aussie.

I genuinely apologise for that.

Shouldnt have brought your wife into it.

Sorry.

 

 

 

Now back to abusing each other

 

She didn't say it like I posted.

[jake]

Nope, fire away.

 

Will try find link.

Basically the Portugese president was told not to let the democratically elected party to form a government.

He obeyed.

Their crime to have a manifesto against austerity.

Tell me again how the EU does not have sovereignty over member states when it does not allow a democratically elected party to form a government.

[aussieh]

Will try find link.

Basically the Portugese president was told not to let the democratically elected party to form a government.

He obeyed.

Their crime to have a manifesto against austerity.

Tell me again how the EU does not have sovereignty over member states when it does not allow a democratically elected party to form a government.

Sounds very similar too. Wait a minute, why/how is there not SNP government we voted for 56 Mps/50% of the votes. Right Wm overruled it.