Scotland's Game

[Bridge of Djoum]

Again, did anyone learn anything from that, other than Rangers saved Scottish society from sectarianism? All of this has been shown before, save perhaps from Rangers players singing party songs.mthere was no new dynamic point to the story, there were no earth shattering points of view, just the same old hacks and voices we have heard before such as Souness, McCann, Smith, McPherson, English and many others who have told their stories 100's of times in the past.

 

For a chanel that is in dispute with Rangers, they don't half play down their bigoted past. We shall see what they say about the current mob that play out of Ibrox and maintain their predecessors bigoted and sectarian views.

Just repeating yourself now. Didn't you get the reaction/attention you wanted from your 1st post telling us you didn't enjoy it?

 

Weird that you sat through it, just to complain.

[Rastajambo]

Watching media types patting Rangers on the back for signing a catholic, embarrassing. Only 20 odd years ago remember.

 

Watching Scottish football "legends" singing FTP and the Billy boys whilst chick dung smiles and laughs away. Embarrassing. Only 20 odd years ago remember.

 

Celtic being saved and them announcing on the stairs "the rebels have won", embarrassing. Only 20 odd years ago remember.

 

All the program done was highlight how little our media actually do to challenge the sectarian problems this country has. Most of the journos we have, to this day, will have made their names in the late 80's early 90's so won't highlight anything as they will all be culpable.

this

[Shaggy2]

Cheers mate! To think that Tommy McLean gave him away to Falkirk, with some cash thrown in, for Colin Cramb! It beggars belief.

Jim Jefferies tells a funny story about how he couldn't believe his luck when he was offered Mo Johnston in exchange for Colin Cramb. Says he'd never moved so fast to go and see the chairman (George Something or other?), only to be told Cramb was going out with his daughter so he wasn't sure whether he should sanction the move!

 

I think he'd have quit there and then if he hadn't got that deal through.

 

To be fair to Tommy McLean, was he not told by Robinson that we couldn't afford to play him due to a clause that would be triggered that would cost us a fortune?

[PISTOL PETE 1874]

Even at a young age BIG TOPPER at the front. on the fence at the 3-0 game at Easter road top man That man loves the HEARTS FC

[TexasAndy]

I thought this was great viewing and brought back many memories.   The Souness revolution at Rangers did change football but not for the better.  We came out of a period where competition for major honours was healthy with Aberdeen and Dundee Utd winning leagues and Hearts almost so.  The Rangers revolution was the cancer that has brought many clubs in Scotland to or near financial ruin.  I think this is where the show is heading next week.  Another thing that made me smile last nigt was a nice reminder of who the true villains of the peace were at Hibs, Duff and Gray.  In a  major twist of Irony Wallace Mercer take over attempts woke their club from the brink of ruin.  It's rather warped that they had so much hate for him even though I understand the desperation to reject his advances.  

[Hearts007]

Jamboelite, on 25 Aug 2016 - 9:16 PM, said:

Brilliant watching police doing their job and wading into Hibs fans.

 

Its been a good program....that miss from Hans Eskilsson.

Yep that's when there were real policeman

[Pans Jambo]

Lots of things changed Scottish football

 

Television

Hillsborough

Bosman Ruling

Below average foreigners flooding squads

SPL

Greed

Could add to that...

Football 'casuals'

Sycophantic old firm loving media (still)

Bias refereeing

Uneven distribution of TV & sponsor money toward the 'big 2'

SPL voting 11/1 in favour of old firm

Reserve league scrapped for the 'U21's league'

Nothing done (until recently) about the sectarian bile from the stands.

&

Rudi Skacel leaving for Southampton.

[Locky]

Yes, I noticed that. With seemingly the whole dressing room joining in. The usual boneheads like John Brown, you'd expect. But Richard Gough & Terry Butcher really ought to have known better. Just shows how inbred their poisonous bile was (and still is). The club of choice for Neanderthal Cavemen.

Give him his dues, Butcher admitted he was totally caught up in it all and even seemed a bit uncomfortable when he said he seen it back.

 

Good watch last night. Don't see what people are moaning about. They weren't bumming up the OF at all and seemed to tackle Scottish football's biggest taboo from the off.

 

It was the historian who said he felt sectarianism was dying down, not particularly the view of the programme itself. And I think he's right about sectarianism dying out with regards to society. However, any Celtic or Rangers game will show you that it's still very much alive and kicking in football.

 

Found Malinga the Swingers points a bit odd too. It's not the BBC's job to find out what's wrong with the game, nor is it their job to fix it. Last night maybe educated many, and was probably an eye opener to Scottish footballs biggest critics who weren't old enough to remember a time when or game was successful.

[Nightwing]

There are two things I took in particular from last night, being born in the 90's.

 

1. I would love to see a game from an rammed, old school terrace. I know safety and blah, blah, but it looks phenomenal. pure unbridled carnage!

 

2. When sectarianism was mentioned, it always seemed to be in 'scottish society'. To me, that seems bizarre. I don't know if it back in the 80's & 90's it was country wide, as all I've known (mostly) is it to be a problem limited to one city and two football clubs. perhaps i'm being cynical but it seemed very much, "everyone does it so don't put too much blame on the OF."

[Five to One]

Just watched it. The Rangers triumphalism knowing what we know now made me cringe.

 

 

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[Locky]

Also, last night was evidence that Scottish football authorities are too scared to rile up the OF. McCann, Murray and Souness all challenged the authorities when scrutinised and had SFA chiefs sacked for it.

 

Celtic and Rangers are really pulling the strings, and the sooner the nation realises it, and installs a board who aren't afraid to get stuck in, we can maybe move out of these dark ages.

[Locky]

There are two things I took in particular from last night, being born in the 90's.

 

1. I would love to see a game from an rammed, old school terrace. I know safety and blah, blah, but it looks phenomenal. pure unbridled carnage!

 

2. When sectarianism was mentioned, it always seemed to be in 'scottish society'. To me, that seems bizarre. I don't know if it back in the 80's & 90's it was country wide, as all I've known (mostly) is it to be a problem limited to one city and two football clubs. perhaps i'm being cynical but it seemed very much, "everyone does it so don't put too much blame on the OF."

It seemed pretty rife the nation over and Hearts as a club were no exception. Neither was Edinburgh. The epicentre has always been Glasgow and the OF always the more involved in a football sense, but there were a fair few clubs back in the day who's fans felt the need to get involved.

[Frank Sidebottom]

Also, last night was evidence that Scottish football authorities are too scared to rile up the OF. McCann, Murray and Souness all challenged the authorities when scrutinised and had SFA chiefs sacked for it.

 

Celtic and Rangers are really pulling the strings, and the sooner the nation realises it, and installs a board who aren't afraid to get stuck in, we can maybe move out of these dark ages.

The programme clearly indicated the SFA were at odds with big Celtic and rangers for one thing or another at the time. Souness got a 2 year touch line ban but it didn't say why.

 

SFA came across as pretty amateurish back then. Not a lot has changed you might argue.

[Zico]

I think it was decent. Great to see some old footage and had an interview with the greatest man who ever walked the earth but lost credibility as soon as Traynor and McKenna appeared - the definition of (Old Firm) fans with typewriters. Terry Butcher was very honest and I think he deserves some credit for that.

 

Quite good overall and will be interesting to see how Murray is treated next week.

[Maroon Sailor]

My good mate Stuart Munro right in front belting out the songs. He was never schooled in the Rangers way, but grew to be 'wan 'o them'.

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Nobody belted it out more than John Brown though but then again I don't think he was ever schooled period - he was giving it some big licks and wouldn't be surprised if he was the orchestrator of it all

[BelgeJambo]

Robbo's face sat next to Wallace Mercer

 

[Ibrahim Tall]

There are two things I took in particular from last night, being born in the 90's.

 

1. I would love to see a game from an rammed, old school terrace. I know safety and blah, blah, but it looks phenomenal. pure unbridled carnage!

 

2. When sectarianism was mentioned, it always seemed to be in 'scottish society'. To me, that seems bizarre. I don't know if it back in the 80's & 90's it was country wide, as all I've known (mostly) is it to be a problem limited to one city and two football clubs. perhaps i'm being cynical but it seemed very much, "everyone does it so don't put too much blame on the OF."

Not sure about "one city", with the amount of Celtic/Rangers fans spread throughout the country, bigotry was and still is too. Especially in the central belt.

[Adi Dassler]

Why would mercer have bought hibs just to keep the same fan base and lose 15k potential Edinburgh football fans?

 

Common sense tells you it would have become Edinburgh Utd in time.

 

It was a ridiculous idea and would have robbed both sets of fans of their clubs.

 

That is why many hearts fans were against it. Mercer was never as popular after it and his leaving was a relief in the end.

 

He saved our club but got too close to Murray. Hearts history has been kind to him though.

 

In a lot of respects history has been re-written around Mercer. He was not well liked as I recall.

 

His 'popularity' only rose during the culmination of the Pieman era and further as a reaction to the Hibs fans and their songs about him.

[Adi Dassler]

Terry Butcher interview was decent. Very open about having to step back and look at what type of person he'd become.

 

Butcher is on record as having these views after the period he claims to have seen the light.

 

He done an interview some time in the early 90's where he slated U2 as being 'rebel music' and not something a proper Rangers man could be into, to paraphrase.

 

Not to say he has not seen the light since, it was a different time.

[Nookie Bear]

In a lot of respects history has been re-written around Mercer. He was not well liked as I recall.

 

His 'popularity' only rose during the culmination of the Pieman era and further as a reaction to the Hibs fans and their songs about him.

 

I think he was liked around the mid-1980s when we were doing well because we knew the role he played in that. He was also good at speaking to the media which came across well.

[i wish jj was my dad]

In a lot of respects history has been re-written around Mercer. He was not well liked as I recall.

 

His 'popularity' only rose during the culmination of the Pieman era and further as a reaction to the Hibs fans and their songs about him.

I think that's a fair point.

 

I was glad when he sold up and probably turned against him after the Hibs takeover.   It was only after Robinson lumbered us with 20m debt that I realised how lucky we were to have had him.

[weaz1981]

Another thing to remember at the time of Rangers v Marsaille is that clubs were restricted to three foreign players they could field in a game.

 

Against Marseille at Ibrox they had Trevor Steven, Alexei Mikhailichenko and Mark Hateley

 

Earlier in the season v Leeds they had Trevor Steven, Peter Huistra and Mark Hateley in one game and Dale Gordon, Mikhailichenko and Hateley in the other.

Didn't Marseille also subsequently get done for match fixing in that tournament as well?

[Adi Dassler]

I think he was liked around the mid-1980s when we were doing well because we knew the role he played in that. He was also good at speaking to the media which came across well.

 

No doubt he saved the club and turned it around in the early days and he should be fondly remembered for that at least. As we approached the late 80's his popularity waned a bit as his ego increased, all the Tory stuff, the Champagne Charlie scene and all that, didn't sit well with a lot of people. The takeover sealed his fate and it was never the same - people never really forgave him (and NOBODY from a Hearts perspective as I recall was in favour of it) and by the end it was bitter with protests outside the Main Stand on a weekly basis.

[Mikey1874]

Not sure about "one city", with the amount of Celtic/Rangers fans spread throughout the country, bigotry was and still is too. Especially in the central belt.

Worst in smaller towns

 

Just how it is

[Footballfirst]

Didn't Marseille also subsequently get done for match fixing in that tournament as well?

 

Yes, but it was a league game against Valenciennes-Anzin immediately before the CL final against Milan.  They had their league title for 1992-93 stripped and were relegated as a result.  It was suspected that other games were likely to have been involved, possibly including CL ones.  The guy behind it was their club president Bernard Tapie.

[jambali]

No doubt he saved the club and turned it around in the early days and he should be fondly remembered for that at least. As we approached the late 80's his popularity waned a bit as his ego increased, all the Tory stuff, the Champagne Charlie scene and all that, didn't sit well with a lot of people. The takeover sealed his fate and it was never the same - people never really forgave him (and NOBODY from a Hearts perspective as I recall was in favour of it) and by the end it was bitter with protests outside the Main Stand on a weekly basis.

He sure did save it...

[norrie1952]

Just watched the program.Does bring back memories.Lots of different points that could be discussed.My take was on a part with successful managers namely Alex Ferguson,Jim McLean,and Souness.I don't think managers today are strong characters .Sometimes we look at the game and don't think the players give their all.In the days of the aforementioned managers I would have been scared shitless to walk back into the dressing room after a defeat.Spiers called Jim McLean a tinpot dictator,Mauris Malpas said he would have got a slap from senior players for screwing up.Ok health and safety,being PC.There must be something in between to make these overpaid entertainers perform.

[Marvin]

Looking back on the hands off hibs campaign. Many hearts fans supported it! Look at the way the hibs' fans attitude towards our own near extinction a few years ago, really does show the differences between the two sets of supporters

Short term memories due to heroin use and glue. They just don't have any decorum.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just watched the program.Does bring back memories.Lots of different points that could be discussed.My take was on a part with successful managers namely Alex Ferguson,Jim McLean,and Souness.I don't think managers today are strong characters .Sometimes we look at the game and don't think the players give their all.In the days of the aforementioned managers I would have been scared shitless to walk back into the dressing room after a defeat.Spiers called Jim McLean a tinpot dictator,Mauris Malpas said he would have got a slap from senior players for screwing up.Ok health and safety,being PC.There must be something in between to make these overpaid entertainers perform.

Wee Doddie certainly got the most out of his teams. Even when we played poorly you were never in any doubt that they left absolutely everything on the pitch and that wasn't down to fear.  I doubt that it was anything to do with being scared of the manager.  It was more to do with the character of the players we had at that time. 

[jumpship]

Worst in smaller towns

 

Just how it is

It is bad in the central belt wee towns outside Glasgow.. But thats mostly because of over crowding in Glasgow forced thousands out and relocated to these wee town..

 

Also I didn't know about Church of Scotland's letter sent out to industries telling them to only employ "only Scot's"

[norrie1952]

Wee Doddie certainly got the most out of his teams. Even when we played poorly you were never in any doubt that they left absolutely everything on the pitch and that wasn't down to fear.  I doubt that it was anything to do with being scared of the manager.  It was more to do with the character of the players we had at that time.

 

Fair point mate

[Rudi-Robertson]

That wasn't Rangers fans on invading the pitch and tearing down the goalposts was it?

[Maroon Sailor]

Just watched the program.Does bring back memories.Lots of different points that could be discussed.My take was on a part with successful managers namely Alex Ferguson,Jim McLean,and Souness.I don't think managers today are strong characters .Sometimes we look at the game and don't think the players give their all.In the days of the aforementioned managers I would have been scared shitless to walk back into the dressing room after a defeat.Spiers called Jim McLean a tinpot dictator,Mauris Malpas said he would have got a slap from senior players for screwing up.Ok health and safety,being PC.There must be something in between to make these overpaid entertainers perform.

Players have got too much power now, hence the spoilt brat attitudes

[Bazzas right boot]

I went to a shareholders meeting at that time and Wallace Mercer said, "the badge won't change, the colours won't change and the name won't change."

No doubt he did, it's what I'd say even if I was to get people on side.

 

Anyway, imo slightly different and not the same circumstances.

[norrie1952]

Jim McLean was a heid case back then.

Remember when he lamped John Barnes ?

Thats kindy my point.They did lift their hands.But not to put them round shoulders and say 'Aw what a shame,better luck next time'

[jambo in iraq]

Why would mercer have bought hibs just to keep the same fan base and lose 15k potential Edinburgh football fans?

 

Common sense tells you it would have become Edinburgh Utd in time.

 

It was a ridiculous idea and would have robbed both sets of fans of their clubs.

 

That is why many hearts fans were against it. Mercer was never as popular after it and his leaving was a relief in the end.

 

He saved our club but got too close to Murray. Hearts history has been kind to him though.

simple. Land sale of Easter road at a time when Edinburgh City council were ramping up development plans for the gentrification of Leith and Britania Quay (or Leith Docks as it was). The sale of the two grounds complete would have paid for the new out of town complex. 

 

Was a crazy idea that was doomed to failure, but he never intended to keep anything to do with Hibs. 

[Walter Kidd]

Mercer should have closed them down.

[Greenbank2]

I enjoyed the program. I was born in the 60's and so lived through all of this, regularly attending matches. I thought the program gave a good insight into the birth of the triumphalist succulent lamb culture that eventually killed RFC, but was lapped up by the media, versus the canny no-nonense approach by wee Fergus. Even if you have no time for either of them, only one of the two was right. It is maybe only an age thing, but Souness signing wee Mo was the biggest shock in Scottish football in my lifetime. I thought there were some good comments, but Stuart Cosgrove got it spot on when he said that the money was the beginning of the end. Will be interesting to see next weeks perspective on the TV money.

 

On a side note, it is now over 30 years since anyone other than the uglies won the top league in Scotland. There is no other league with such a duopoly anywhere in the world. And nothing is going to change. There will probably be those on here who will say "ah but Leicester". Remember that the revenue between the top and bottom teams in the Engilsh top league maybe differ by a factor of 3X. Every team has a playing/transfer budget that is ?50-?150M per year. Every now and then a good manager will uncover a team that can compete at the top given these resources. Timmy will generate a MINIMUM of ?30M from this years CL. Add on their turnover and their income will easily be 10X ours. One result of the old model of directors syphoning off money for themselves was that it made it a much more level playing field!

[Maroon Sailor]

I enjoyed the program. I was born in the 60's and so lived through all of this, regularly attending matches. I thought the program gave a good insight into the birth of the triumphalist succulent lamb culture that eventually killed RFC, but was lapped up by the media, versus the canny no-nonense approach by wee Fergus. Even if you have no time for either of them, only one of the two was right. It is maybe only an age thing, but Souness signing wee Mo was the biggest shock in Scottish football in my lifetime. I thought there were some good comments, but Stuart Cosgrove got it spot on when he said that the money was the beginning of the end. Will be interesting to see next weeks perspective on the TV money.

 

On a side note, it is now over 30 years since anyone other than the uglies won the top league in Scotland. There is no other league with such a duopoly anywhere in the world. And nothing is going to change. There will probably be those on here who will say "ah but Leicester". Remember that the revenue between the top and bottom teams in the Engilsh top league maybe differ by a factor of 3X. Every team has a playing/transfer budget that is ?50-?150M per year. Every now and then a good manager will uncover a team that can compete at the top given these resources. Timmy will generate a MINIMUM of ?30M from this years CL. Add on their turnover and their income will easily be 10X ours. One result of the old model of directors syphoning off money for themselves was that it made it a much more level playing field!

Good post

 

Mo Johnston signing for Rangers was the biggest shock for me, especially after parading in front of the cameras, complete with the worst jumper in history, alongside Billy McNeill at Parkhead.

 

Celtic is the only club I want to play for and all that !

 

Also think Scottish clubs don't do themselves any favours by selling their best players to the OF. Never going to break through the duopoly if that continues.

[RudiHMFC]

Really enjoyed watching that, before my time but a good watch, nice to see a lot of seething hibs fans

[Maroon Sailor]

Really enjoyed watching that, before my time but a good watch, nice to see a lot of seething hibs fans

They've always been tossers

[i wish jj was my dad]

I hope that if the next episode actually looks at what has gone wrong then we hear from the likes of Spency rather than the usual suspects. As much as I enjoyed the programme it's typical that the BBC's idea of balance is to listen to Jabba and Kevin McKenna who can only see through orange and green lenses.

[DH1986]

Lots of decent and interesting little stories even it was in random order.

[Deans Jambo]

One thing I took from the programme is if your in charge of running Hibs you require a large mouser!

[Bowmans_Boot]

No doubt he did, it's what I'd say even if I was to get people on side.

 

Anyway, imo slightly different and not the same circumstances.

I believed him, as did the other shareholders at the meeting, as the atmosphere was quite celebratory.

 

I think those Hearts fans who didn't support the takeover either shared your opinion (that Heart of Midlothian would not continue) or valued having two Edinburgh clubs. Personally, I thought it was the ultimate derby victory in wiping them out.

[manaliveits105]

Parochial cringeworthy gash Im out

[luckydug]

No doubt he saved the club and turned it around in the early days and he should be fondly remembered for that at least. As we approached the late 80's his popularity waned a bit as his ego increased, all the Tory stuff, the Champagne Charlie scene and all that, didn't sit well with a lot of people. The takeover sealed his fate and it was never the same - people never really forgave him (and NOBODY from a Hearts perspective as I recall was in favour of it) and by the end it was bitter with protests outside the Main Stand on a weekly basis.

 

A masterclass in rewriting history.

There was a few protests against moving out of town Hands of Tynecastle or something. Most of it was orchestrated behind the scenes by people who were trying to buy the club on the cheap. Mr Mercer also angered a few "traditional Hearts fans" with his loudspeaker broadcast during a match against Rangers by demanding that the throwing of bananas at Mark Walters must stop. The progress Hearts made between the years of 1981 and 1989 would be the equivalent of Hearts reaching the CL group stages nowadays from administration.

Some Hearts fans are ungrateful barstewards then and now as Mrs Budge will soon discover.  

[Maroon Sailor]

A masterclass in rewriting history.

There was a few protests against moving out of town Hands of Tynecastle or something. Most of it was orchestrated behind the scenes by people who were trying to buy the club on the cheap. Mr Mercer also angered a few "traditional Hearts fans" with his loudspeaker broadcast during a match against Rangers by demanding that the throwing of bananas at Mark Walters must stop. The progress Hearts made between the years of 1981 and 1989 would be the equivalent of Hearts reaching the CL group stages nowadays from administration.

Some Hearts fans are ungrateful barstewards then and now as Mrs Budge will soon discover.

 

Good post

 

Mercer was the best thing to happen to Hearts and he put his money where his mouth was.

[Kinkster]

A masterclass in rewriting history.

There was a few protests against moving out of town Hands of Tynecastle or something. Most of it was orchestrated behind the scenes by people who were trying to buy the club on the cheap. Mr Mercer also angered a few "traditional Hearts fans" with his loudspeaker broadcast during a match against Rangers by demanding that the throwing of bananas at Mark Walters must stop. The progress Hearts made between the years of 1981 and 1989 would be the equivalent of Hearts reaching the CL group stages nowadays from administration.

Some Hearts fans are ungrateful barstewards then and now as Mrs Budge will soon discover.

 

Utter shite. You have made up the loudspeaker, Mark Walters, bananas, never happened.

[hueyview]

Utter shite. You have made up the loudspeaker, Mark Walters, bananas, never happened.