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The Somme


dexy

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100 years ago this morning, thousands of British army soldiers went 'over the top'

 

40,000 were wounded

 

20,000 were killed

 

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning

We will remember them.

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jack D and coke

Incredible stuff, difficult to imagine what these men went through.

Brave just doesn't do them any justice whatsover.

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Fxxx the SPFL

It's really difficult to comprehend the carnage on that day they have just been saying that some knew that they were going to die going over the top brave brave men/teenagers.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

People can never know enough about this or be reminded about it enough. Bless them all

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132goals1958

Just been watching the Battle of the Somme -100 on BBC 1 just now .  Very moving  remembrance.

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Gene Parmesan

Watching ceremony now

 

Rest in peace boys

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PeterintheRain

  The point about 1st July 1916 is that no bravery was involved. Just ignorance.  Thousands of men got out of their trenches and WALKED SLOWLY towards the German lines in the full knowledge that all the Hun were dead and they'd not face any resistance. The bravery came afterwards.

 

    Although if the choice was to be shot by the enemy or your own side it becomes no choice at all and true bravery can only come when you have freedom to choose.  Which some people seem to have forgotten for some unpleasant reasons.  

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TyphoonJambo
"They gave up their tomorrows' so we could have our todays" . A tremendously moving and fitting ceremony.

 

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TyphoonJambo

  The point about 1st July 1916 is that no bravery was involved. Just ignorance.  Thousands of men got out of their trenches and WALKED SLOWLY towards the German lines in the full knowledge that all the Hun were dead and they'd not face any resistance. The bravery came afterwards.

 

    Although if the choice was to be shot by the enemy or your own side it becomes no choice at all and true bravery can only come when you have freedom to choose.  Which some people seem to have forgotten for some unpleasant reasons.  

I hope you enjoy practicing your freedom to write this direspectful drivel. These guys died so you could do so.

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Again, a poor poor troll.

 

Have a day off, you're not very good at this game.

Best to ignore the attention seekers.
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132goals1958

Best to ignore the attention seekers.

 Exactly --Probably isolated in his day to day life and looking for some recognition factor on here.

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doctor jambo

  The point about 1st July 1916 is that no bravery was involved. Just ignorance.  Thousands of men got out of their trenches and WALKED SLOWLY towards the German lines in the full knowledge that all the Hun were dead and they'd not face any resistance. The bravery came afterwards.

 

    Although if the choice was to be shot by the enemy or your own side it becomes no choice at all and true bravery can only come when you have freedom to choose.  Which some people seem to have forgotten for some unpleasant reasons.  

I really despair.

ON the day we remember the absolute hell these volunteers (yes, they had choice- they chose to enlist ) went through you get this kind of wilful ignorance.

in an effort to appear clever, you reveal your ignorance

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scott herbertson

Quite a long piece on Contalmaison on the 1pm reporting scotland, with a promise of more extensive coverage of the service in the evening edition, for those interested

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Maple Leaf

The most calamitous day in the history of the British army.  Over 250,000 men were involved in the attack, and every one of them was a volunteer.

 

The bravery of the young men was incredible.  Although the initial wave of the attack was supposedly against defences that had been obliterated by artillery, it quickly became apparent that the artillery barrage had failed and that the enemy was ready and waiting.  But subsequent waves of infantry did not hesitate; they did their duty and went over the top, and met the same fate as their comrades.

 

But the tragedy of the First Day has overshadowed what became a 4-month campaign.  The objectives were to relieve the pressure on the French at Verdun.  This was a success.  Another objective was to inflict casualties on the enemy.  This was a success, as German casualties during the Somme campaign exceeded British casualties.  The history of the German army records the Somme as a defeat.

 

But the effect of the Somme on the British population was profound, once the full casualty list were published.  Attitudes changed.  The war was no longer something to be won; it was something to be endured.

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 To go through training with, to go to the Regiment with, and to watch the men you have known and befriended leave the trench and be mown down, see them die, and then bravely follow them is courage that is profound, I honestly cannot visualise myself having it, whatever the reasons, whatever the cause these men the the ones who died the , wounded and the survivors at the least deserve our remembrance and respect on this day, 100 years later.

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Have any of our senior supporters ever talked to veterans of the Great War? I used to work with pensioners thirty years ago that saw action in WW2 but never met anyone from the first war.

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richiehmfc

The losses are difficult to comprehend. I visited Normandy a few years back and when you visit the graves there it really brings home the scale of the losses, The Somme dwarfs this substantially.

 

As other have said, the bravery of these young men is unimaginable and the losses touched practically every family in Britain and Ireland. I read earlier that only 53 out of all the towns and villages in the whole of Britain never suffered a fatality in WW1.  

 

I have recorded the commemorative service on the BBC today and I will no doubt sit this evening and shed a tear for some of the individual stories about a whole generation of brave young men who never returned to these shore.

 

Rest in Peace lads

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The sacrifices of these men should never be forgotten. It's right that younger generations remember them.

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Maple Leaf

Have any of our senior supporters ever talked to veterans of the Great War? I used to work with pensioners thirty years ago that saw action in WW2 but never met anyone from the first war.

Yes.  When I first started work in the rubber mill on Fountainbridge, I worked beside several men who were veterans of WWI.  One of them was still a nervous mess because of shelling, and another had been shot through the head by a sniper at Loos in 1915.  You could see the scars of the entry and exit wounds.

 

All of them were really tremendous men, and it made me realise what had been lost in the war.

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Yes. When I first started work in the rubber mill on Fountainbridge, I worked beside several men who were veterans of WWI. One of them was still a nervous mess because of shelling, and another had been shot through the head by a sniper at Loos in 1915. You could see the scars of the entry and exit wounds.

 

All of them were really tremendous men, and it made me realise what had been lost in the war.

The head wound probably saved the his life. Must have been a Blighty one.
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BangkokHearts

We should never forget their sacrifice.

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Maple Leaf

The head wound probably saved the his life. Must have been a Blighty one.

Could be. 

 

It was a particularly harrowing story.  He was hit in the left temple, and the bullet exited through his right cheek, just above the chin, removing several teeth and part of his lower jaw.  He said it was like being hit in the head with a hammer.  He had been in the firing line with the rest of his platoon, but when he regained consciousness, he was alone.  The others had gone into attack.  He made his own way back to the dressing station, but  it was crowded with other casualties, and he was treated as low priority.  The wounds were packed with cotton wool, and he was sent to the rear.

 

After he recovered, he returned to the Front.

 

The man, whose name was Willie Grossart, hailed from Carnwath.  He was in the Cameron Highlanders.  Many years later, I learned that Hearts player James Speedie was also in the Cameron Highlanders, and was killed at Loos, the same battle that saw Willie Grossart shot through the head. 

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Durham Jambo

I was at the Somme last month. Everything is put in perspective when you see the cemeteries. I visited Contalmaison to see the McCraes battalion cairn. Overall a very humbling visit.

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I met many ww1 veterans, and don't remember any telling me about their experiences.  One who was one of the victims of our giggles as a boy had one side of his face completely bashed in as if he had no cheek bone, or jaw bone on one side. As kids we used to run away laughing from this horror movie character.

 

Years later as a policeman and former soldier I used to meet him going to work when I was working the beat around Gifford Park.  He was of course still badly scarred,  but one of the nicest friendliest people I would meet in the mornings.  Another policeman had spoken to him, and advised me that he was under the impression he had received his facial injuries in a fight actually in the trencehes.  Of course I later learned of some of the barbaric tools they used as weapons in these hand to hand combats.

 

In a converse way was a young airman from WW2 who had been shot down and had suffered severe burns to his face.  His whole face was a massive burn scar, he was a hero to us and not at all scary.  Again in later years I saw him as a postman, plastic surgeons had done wonders, and no scars showed at all he was not a bad looking man considering what he had gone through.

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J Cheever Loophole

Have any of our senior supporters ever talked to veterans of the Great War? I used to work with pensioners thirty years ago that saw action in WW2 but never met anyone from the first war.

I have watched all 13 interviews countless times.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01tczfx/the-great-war-interviews-4-cecil-arthur-lewis

 

As a by note I was born in the earlie '60's and the earliest song I can remember was a song a great Uncle taught me.

 

" Holy Moses, I am dying

Just one word before I go

If you see a German Soldier

Stick a bayonet up his

Holy Moses I am dying........

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Robbie Neilson

The most calamitous day in the history of the British army.  Over 250,000 men were involved in the attack, and every one of them was a volunteer.

 

The bravery of the young men was incredible.  Although the initial wave of the attack was supposedly against defences that had been obliterated by artillery, it quickly became apparent that the artillery barrage had failed and that the enemy was ready and waiting.  But subsequent waves of infantry did not hesitate; they did their duty and went over the top, and met the same fate as their comrades.

 

But the tragedy of the First Day has overshadowed what became a 4-month campaign.  The objectives were to relieve the pressure on the French at Verdun.  This was a success.  Another objective was to inflict casualties on the enemy.  This was a success, as German casualties during the Somme campaign exceeded British casualties.  The history of the German army records the Somme as a defeat.

 

But the effect of the Somme on the British population was profound, once the full casualty list were published.  Attitudes changed.  The war was no longer something to be won; it was something to be endured.

 

Great post ^^^^

 

 

I hope you enjoy practicing your freedom to write this direspectful drivel. These guys died so you could do so.

 

They did not die in defense of free speech :rofl: Look up the reasons why Britain went to war in the first place before spouting drivel

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Jambo-Jimbo

My 3 children have all been to the Somme, Ypres, Menin gate, Flanders etc with the school, something which I hugely encouraged them to do.

 

All 3 said that it hit it home when all you can see in every direction is all these white crosses and headstones, for what seems like miles and miles.

When standing at the edge of that huge crater and then be told that this was the German front line with dozens and dozens, maybe even hundreds of soldiers blown to absolutly nothing, nothing left, just gone.

 

One story they were told by the guides, whilst standing at the graves of a French father & son who are buried side by side and who both died on the same day at the same time, mown down by machine gun fire, the guide said can you just imagine that wife & mother being told that her husband and only son had both been killed together, the son was only 15 years old, the same age as they were on the school trip, needless to say this affected some of them that kids their age had fought and died at the Somme.

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Dh Lawrence wrote a haunting piece for the Manchester Guardian where he foresaw the grinding mechanization of warfare as mothers were cheering off their sons. Highly recommended.

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J Cheever Loophole
I have watched all 13 interviews countless times.http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01tczfx/the-great-war-interviews-4-cecil-arthur-lewis

 

Thanks for posting the link to the interview which really bring history to life.

My dad's father (dead before I was born) was wounded at Passchendaele. His medals are family treasures. My mum's dad, who I did know, was in Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, with the British Expeditionary Force fighting the Turks. I cannot recall him ever talking about his wartime experiences.

I think it's tougher to maintain any lasting reasonance with younger generations who have had no personal contact with those who fought in WW1. It's incredible to think that more people than attend a full Tynecastle were killed on 1 July 1916.

I can remember good times from 40 years ago, '76 heatwave for example.

I can't begin to imagine the horrors those men carried with them till their dying day.  

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Fly the Saltire

What happened to these volunteers was an absolute tragedy. They were seduced by jingoist British propaganda to fight in a war between two imperialist elites.

They didn't know what was in store and the choice was getting slaughtered by going over the top or shot for cowardice.

So lets not glorify war but remember those poor guys who were sacrificed for their rulers grandiose ambitious.

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Forza Cuore

What happened to these volunteers was an absolute tragedy. They were seduced by jingoist British propaganda to fight in a war between two imperialist elites.

They didn't know what was in store and the choice was getting slaughtered by going over the top or shot for cowardice.

So lets not glorify war but remember those poor guys who were sacrificed for their rulers grandiose ambitious.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is glorifying war here, much more giving respect to these boys.

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J Cheever Loophole

What happened to these volunteers was an absolute tragedy. They were seduced by jingoist British propaganda to fight in a war between two imperialist elites.

They didn't know what was in store and the choice was getting slaughtered by going over the top or shot for cowardice.

So lets not glorify war but remember those poor guys who were sacrificed for their rulers grandiose ambitious.

Both sides!

Sticks in my craw that there was 25% Scottish casualties and 15% English, through out the Great War.

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I remember reading about a young lad who was a postman in Salford and once the telegrams started being sent out being in tears as he went from house to house delivering the bad news and women screaming at him telling him to stay away from their homes.

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J Cheever Loophole

I read on The Great War Forum about horses trying to crawl under wagons to escape shellfire. when was the last time anyone witnessed a horse crawling?

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Fly the Saltire

Both sides!

Sticks in my craw that there was 25% Scottish casualties and 15% English, through out the Great War.

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Fly the Saltire

Agree the BBC etc refuse to recognise that Scotland and Serbia suffered far more causalties than any other counties and suspicious is that Scottish regiments were sent in first to be butchered.

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Agree the BBC etc refuse to recognise that Scotland and Serbia suffered far more causalties than any other counties and suspicious is that Scottish regiments were sent in first to be butchered.

I'll keep it dignified in my response and only suggest you stop the point scoring.
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Forza Cuore

I'll keep it dignified in my response and only suggest you stop the point scoring.

Agreed. Not the time.

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Fly the Saltire

I'll keep it dignified in my response and only suggest you stop the point scoring.

 

No one is denigrating the fallen in WW1. Both my grand fathers volunteered to serve miraculously both survived but my father's grand father , who had a young family, when he volunteered was badly gassed and every winter his face turned blue and died at age 60 despite never drinking or smoking. 

 

We should always remember that history is written by the winners hence Scotland has relied on England's hand outs since 1707 and all Germans were bast*rds in WWW1  .

 

Suggest you read  this account by Paul Mason Channel 4 on how German workers helped stop the war.

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/world-war/1240

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Fly the Saltire

Should read great grand fathers volunteered.  According to some, it is never the time to mention the background to events.

 

Scottish soldiers suffered disproportionately compared to other allies.

 

We should not forget that 26% of Scots in First World War didn't come home

The UK's population in 1911 was 42,138,000 and Scotland's was 4,751,000: 11.27% of the UK total.  It is now 8.3% so much for a  union dividend.

 

Of the Scots who marched away, 26.4% did not come home: the percentage for the rest of the UK and Ireland was 11.8% and for France 16.8%. Only the Serbs and Turks had a higher proportion of participant deaths than Scotland.

 

All Scotland's First World War commemorations should stress the fact that 1.6% of the adult male population of the rest of the UK and Ireland died in the war. Scotland's adult male population was depleted by 3.1%.

 

There was a lot of opposition to the War in Scotland particularly on Clydeside.

On August 9th. 1914 the Independent Labour Party  and the Glasgow branch of the Peace Society organised an anti-war demonstration of 5,000 people on Glasgow Green.

In February 1915 there was a strike at the munitions factory Weirs of Cathcart. The odds were stacked against them. The Defence of the Realm Act had made strikes illegal and the TUC had made a pledge of industrial peace for the duration of the War and so the Strike was an unofficial, shop steward led strike, (most of whom were pupils of MacLean), in defiance of the Union. The workers formed rank and file Labour Withholding Committee to conduct the strike but were forced back to work with no strike pay. However this was to prove the start of real militancy on the Clyde.

Left anti war newspapers were such as Forward and Vanguard were all banned and socialist leaders like John Maclean were arrested and sent to prison.  As a conscientious objector Jimmy Maxton also went to prison and his dog was stoned to death by jingoistic Brits.  After his release he was refused his University entrance on the grounds that he had been to prison.

In 1915 there was a months-long rent strike of 30,000 Glasgow residents against profiteering landlords, forcing the government to freeze rents for the duration of World War.

The ?official account? of Lloyd George?s meeting with munitions workers in Glasgow in December 1915 was heavily censored to avoid mention of his hostile reception from Union members   http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redcly121.htm

Then on June 29th. 1916 Lloyd George was invited to Glasgow by the City of Glasgow Corporation to receive the "Freedom of the City". This brought about violent demonstrations against such an action with calls that the "Freedom of the City" should be give to John Maclean, David Kirkwood, and others who were at that moment in prison for their anti-war stance. Lloyd George was advised not to come to Glasgow as there would be a revolution when he arrived.

 

Alarmed by the Forty Hours Strike called on the 27th January, the Government sent English troops to Glasgow to keep the peace and make sure that essential services were not disrupted. Six tanks and 100 motor lorries accompanied the troops, and they were sent to strategic points across the city on 1 February in a calculated show of force.

The strikers began to drift back to work from 4 February and six days later the Strike Committee issued a statement recommending that men should return to work on the 12th. The tanks had been withdrawn from the city several days earlier.

Those that survived the war could not find jobs and mass emigration took place in the 1920s  In 1921 over 50,000 Scots emigrated more than any other country in Europe.  During the period 1921-1930 those leaving Scotland actually exceeded the entire natural increase. The scale of the losses were only greater in two other European countries. 

 

Examples of Scotland?s War Losses

At Loos, on September 25, 1915, 36 of the 72 attacking battalions were Scottish and of the 12 participating battalions which suffered more than 500 casualties, eight were Scottish.

At the Battle of Arras, on April 9, 1917, the Official History noted that 44 of the 120 infantry battalions committed (36.6%) were Scottish (12 each in 15th and 51st Divisions); nine, including the South African Scottish in the 9th; six, including four Tyneside Scottish in the 34th; three in the 3rd; one in the 30th and 1/1 London Scottish in the 56th. Removing the Tynesiders, South Africans and London Scottish, all of which may not have had a majority of Scots, the remaining 39 Scottish battalions represents 32.5% of the attacking force.

Like all the UK's good Western Front assault divisions, 9th (Scottish), 15th (Scottish) and 51st (Highland) were deployed in crucial attacks more often than less competent divisions. Their war's end casualties reflected this. The 52nd (Lowland) served in the Middle East and, latterly, France.

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Riddley Walker

Should read great grand fathers volunteered. According to some, it is never the time to mention the background to events.

 

Scottish soldiers suffered disproportionately compared to other allies.

 

We should not forget that 26% of Scots in First World War didn't come home

The UK's population in 1911 was 42,138,000 and Scotland's was 4,751,000: 11.27% of the UK total. It is now 8.3% so much for a union dividend.

 

Of the Scots who marched away, 26.4% did not come home: the percentage for the rest of the UK and Ireland was 11.8% and for France 16.8%. Only the Serbs and Turks had a higher proportion of participant deaths than Scotland.

 

All Scotland's First World War commemorations should stress the fact that 1.6% of the adult male population of the rest of the UK and Ireland died in the war. Scotland's adult male population was depleted by 3.1%.

 

There was a lot of opposition to the War in Scotland particularly on Clydeside.

On August 9th. 1914 the Independent Labour Party and the Glasgow branch of the Peace Society organised an anti-war demonstration of 5,000 people on Glasgow Green.

In February 1915 there was a strike at the munitions factory Weirs of Cathcart. The odds were stacked against them. The Defence of the Realm Act had made strikes illegal and the TUC had made a pledge of industrial peace for the duration of the War and so the Strike was an unofficial, shop steward led strike, (most of whom were pupils of MacLean), in defiance of the Union. The workers formed rank and file Labour Withholding Committee to conduct the strike but were forced back to work with no strike pay. However this was to prove the start of real militancy on the Clyde.

Left anti war newspapers were such as Forward and Vanguard were all banned and socialist leaders like John Maclean were arrested and sent to prison. As a conscientious objector Jimmy Maxton also went to prison and his dog was stoned to death by jingoistic Brits. After his release he was refused his University entrance on the grounds that he had been to prison.

In 1915 there was a months-long rent strike of 30,000 Glasgow residents against profiteering landlords, forcing the government to freeze rents for the duration of World War.

The ?official account? of Lloyd George?s meeting with munitions workers in Glasgow in December 1915 was heavily censored to avoid mention of his hostile reception from Union members http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redcly121.htm

Then on June 29th. 1916 Lloyd George was invited to Glasgow by the City of Glasgow Corporation to receive the "Freedom of the City". This brought about violent demonstrations against such an action with calls that the "Freedom of the City" should be give to John Maclean, David Kirkwood, and others who were at that moment in prison for their anti-war stance. Lloyd George was advised not to come to Glasgow as there would be a revolution when he arrived.

 

Alarmed by the Forty Hours Strike called on the 27th January, the Government sent English troops to Glasgow to keep the peace and make sure that essential services were not disrupted. Six tanks and 100 motor lorries accompanied the troops, and they were sent to strategic points across the city on 1 February in a calculated show of force.

The strikers began to drift back to work from 4 February and six days later the Strike Committee issued a statement recommending that men should return to work on the 12th. The tanks had been withdrawn from the city several days earlier.

Those that survived the war could not find jobs and mass emigration took place in the 1920s In 1921 over 50,000 Scots emigrated more than any other country in Europe. During the period 1921-1930 those leaving Scotland actually exceeded the entire natural increase. The scale of the losses were only greater in two other European countries.

 

Examples of Scotland?s War Losses

At Loos, on September 25, 1915, 36 of the 72 attacking battalions were Scottish and of the 12 participating battalions which suffered more than 500 casualties, eight were Scottish.

At the Battle of Arras, on April 9, 1917, the Official History noted that 44 of the 120 infantry battalions committed (36.6%) were Scottish (12 each in 15th and 51st Divisions); nine, including the South African Scottish in the 9th; six, including four Tyneside Scottish in the 34th; three in the 3rd; one in the 30th and 1/1 London Scottish in the 56th. Removing the Tynesiders, South Africans and London Scottish, all of which may not have had a majority of Scots, the remaining 39 Scottish battalions represents 32.5% of the attacking force.

Like all the UK's good Western Front assault divisions, 9th (Scottish), 15th (Scottish) and 51st (Highland) were deployed in crucial attacks more often than less competent divisions. Their war's end casualties reflected this. The 52nd (Lowland) served in the Middle East and, latterly, France.

I think you should start a new thread about this in the Shed.

 

You're input is worthy of discussion but c'mon, it's not the place.

 

Poor show btw, and i say that as someone whose politics is probably close to yours.

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I visited the wonderful monument at Thiepval, where the main ceremony was held today, a few years ago.

The names of 72195 fallen soldiers are inscribed on it. These are the guys whose bodies were never found - just think of that.

 

We must never, ever forget.

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davemclaren

I visited the wonderful monument at Thiepval, where the main ceremony was held today, a few years ago.

The names of 72195 fallen soldiers are inscribed on it. These are the guys whose bodies were never found - just think of that.

 

We must never, ever forget.

My great uncle's name is on there and it was very moving to see it when I went to see it. Every city, town and village was touched by the Great War. It really was a lost generation.

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