Paterson not suited to 3-5-2 ?

[Smith&Weston]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/robbie-neilson-hearts-won-t-abandon-their-passing-style-1-4116076

 

That comment at the bottom worries me about Neilson and his tactics. Paterson is probably the perfect wing-back type so not sure what to make of that comment. How he can think Nicholson and then Cowie are better options makes you wonder if Paterson is away this summer. Liam Smith would also be better in that position than the said two as he likes to get forward and can defend;

 

3-5-2 on a tight pitch at Tynecastle just doesn't work. Ok on wider pitches when you can allow the ball to be out wide and use the extra man in the middle.

[kingantti1874]

3-5-2 is s shit system, No one aid played it for years till LvG brought it back into fashion with Holland at the WC.

[Italian Lambretta]

I never saw any passing in the 1st half just hoofing it up the park

[Futurejambo1]

Think everyone in the stadium was baffled by Calum's omission from a 3-5-2, IMO it's the ideal position for him to play.

[Markymark]

A few things in that article jump out at me.

 

Nicholson hasn't went past a man in months.

Robbie thought we were to direct at time! Really. I thought we were pedestrian and lacked that final pass.

How he can think cowie was a better option than Paterson on the right- the move at half time was clear that he got it wrong.

 

To many tactical tweaks made to often without the the required players in place that have the level of intelligence to change their own game up week after week.

[Joe Hearts]

So let me get this right, we are 3 games away from the end of the season and we still don't know what is our best formation and what players to play where.

Next month we play in Europe!

[Bauld]

I'm inclined to agree that when Paterson is in that system he finds himself too far up the pitch without the intelligence to know when he has to get back and defend. He's a forward thinking player, at right back he is further back defensively to begin with and that aids him keeping a good defensive line.

[Ray Gin]

So let me get this right, we are 3 games away from the end of the season and we still don't know what is our best formation and what players to play where.

Next month we play in Europe!

Perfect time to experiment.

[Super_Hans]

Ridiculous to experiment with a 3-5-2 v Celtic in the first place. Got three games left where we can do that against lesser opposition.

Agree with the OP, I've thought that Paterson would be perfectly suited to playing wing-back but he plays Cowie instead. Baffling.

[Snedds76]

3-5-2, 4-3-2-1, 5-4-1......bollox to them all football isn't complicated you play a solid 4-4-2 formation with your strongest players and forget about who you're playing. Have a little and large striker combination ala Sandy Clark /robbo, DE Vries/Weir, Hamilton/Adam and it works! Coaches these days just try and complicate such a simple game. Oh and Robbie hoofing the ball away from danger from time to time isn't a bad thing either!

 

 

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[Clerry Jambo]

3-5-2, 4-3-2-1, 5-4-1......bollox to them all football isn't complicated you play a solid 4-4-2 formation with your strongest players and forget about who you're playing. Have a little and large striker combination ala Sandy Clark /robbo, DE Vries/Weir, Hamilton/Adam and it works! Coaches these days just try and complicate such a simple game. Oh and Robbie hoofing the ball away from danger from time to time isn't a bad thing either!

 

 

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This

[The Treasurer]

Ridiculous to experiment with a 3-5-2 v Celtic in the first place. Got three games left where we can do that against lesser opposition.

Agree with the OP, I've thought that Paterson would be perfectly suited to playing wing-back but he plays Cowie instead. Baffling.

Hardly an experiment.

We played that system a few weeks ago at darkhead and gave arguably our best performance there for years.

I think RN deserves praise for realising it wasn't working on Saturday and making the changes that, but for comedy defending, could have brought at least one, possibly three points.

[buzzbomb]

Systems are meaningless if you don't pass the ball to each other or you use every system to sit back and be defensive (unless that is the intention of the system)

[scott herbertson]

3-5-2, 4-3-2-1, 5-4-1......bollox to them all football isn't complicated you play a solid 4-4-2 formation with your strongest players and forget about who you're playing. Have a little and large striker combination ala Sandy Clark /robbo, DE Vries/Weir, Hamilton/Adam and it works! Coaches these days just try and complicate such a simple game. Oh and Robbie hoofing the ball away from danger from time to time isn't a bad thing either!

 

 

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Couldn't help myself nodding my head at this - it's worked plenty of times before

[Rudolf's Mate]

Hardly an experiment.

We played that system a few weeks ago at darkhead and gave arguably our best performance there for years.

I think RN deserves praise for realising it wasn't working on Saturday and making the changes that, but for comedy defending, could have brought at least one, possibly three points.

 

I agree with this to some extent however Robbie's comments are blown out the water re passing from the back when Augustyn was (as always) attempts to clear the stadium!

[hmfc_liam06]

3-5-2 is s shit system, No one aid played it for years till LvG brought it back into fashion with Holland at the WC.

Rubbish. Juventus and a load of other Italian sides have played it for years.

[kila]

From the get go in the first half, Celtic were pressing us and whenever we regained possession, often there was little movement from everyone else in our team, so Celtic closed down and won it back.

 

The second half, we pressed Celtic from the get go, and we got our goal. I think it was down to Paterson and Dauda coming on who looked fired up and were running and pressing Celtic. I don't think our formation change was the catalyst.

 

Augustyn probably didn't help in the first half, as he took ages on the ball and although moved forward with it sometimes, would hoof it over our midfield.

[amadjambo]

If Paterson has any sense he will be on the blower to his agent to get a move away from this madness.

[amadjambo]

Since the Hibs matches, every single Hearts player has beaten more men than Sam Nicholson, including Alexander. Sam has not gone past a single man in months. Incredible stuff.

[Spencer]

3-5-2 is s shit system, No one aid played it for years till LvG brought it back into fashion with Holland at the WC.

I have to agree. We certainly haven't got the players to play it either

[Spencer]

I agree with this to some extent however Robbie's comments are blown out the water re passing from the back when Augustyn was (as always) attempts to clear the stadium!

Interesting to note the Augustyn bashing that's taken place since Saturday.

 

Thank feck he didn't make the errors that Souttar did (obviously Souttar is above criticism on here I note) otherwise this place would've had a server meltdown.

 

One can only try and imagine if Oshinawa made those errors

[Cigaro]

I have to agree. We certainly haven't got the players to play it either

Yet.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if the point in playing it now was to identify the areas that need improved on to allow us to play it effectively.

 

It wouldn't be my first choice formation either fwiw.

 

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[amadjambo]

Leicester have shown what can be done by playing your best players and not over complicating matters. We are going to get nowhere with this constant chopping and changing. And not playing one of our best players for tactical reasons is utter buffoonery.

[The Treasurer]

Interesting to note the Augustyn bashing that's taken place since Saturday.

 

Thank feck he didn't make the errors that Souttar did (obviously Souttar is above criticism on here I note) otherwise this place would've had a server meltdown.

 

One can only try and imagine if Oshinawa made those errors

Souttar's errors cost us two goals, no doubt about that.

However his performances since he signed (including Saturday) means he deserves a bit of slack.

[The Treasurer]

Leicester have shown what can be done by playing your best players and not over complicating matters. We are going to get nowhere with this constant chopping and changing. And not playing one of our best players for tactical reasons is utter buffoonery.

I'm getting rather tired of this "but Leicester do it this way" pish.

[Spencer]

Souttar's errors cost us two goals, no doubt about that.

However his performances since he signed (including Saturday) means he deserves a bit of slack.

I'm of the view that Souttar has the talent to become a very good player. But it would be fair to say that he's been caught out beyond those two goals on Saturday. The ease at which Shinnie got in the set up Church the other Friday was ridiculous, yet Augustyn got it for losing Church. Not mention of the disappearing act the rest of his back 4 did, most notably right back that evening.

 

There's no way that 3-5-2 will be a success imo.

[amadjambo]

I'm getting rather tired of this "but Leicester do it this way" pish.

Ok, scratch Leicester and substitute for just about any successful team.

[amadjambo]

Exactly where does Walker fit in to a 3-5-2? He's certainly not a striker.

[Lambo85]

Yeah Robbie, Paterson is not suited to that position and Cowie is.................

[Jambof3tornado]

If paterson isnt an ideal wingback then I dont know who is.

 

Crazy not to try the setup with him and juwon in the wingback roles.

 

Robbie lets himself down a bit with silly comments, hopefully he will continue to develop.

 

As for the comment about Callum not knowing when to come back, kitchen reads the game well enough to know when to cover.

 

I'd be trying it again v Ross county with round pegs in round holes this time.

[Jambof3tornado]

Souttar's errors cost us two goals, no doubt about that.

However his performances since he signed (including Saturday) means he deserves a bit of slack.

His age also gives him some leeway. He is still learning.

 

I still think an experienced old head in beside souttar or ozturk is the way to nurture them.

[RudiHMFC]

I'm getting rather tired of this "but Leicester do it this way" pish.

Accepting your limitations and playing to your strengths, it's not a bad way to go, shoehorning players into unnatural positions in order to play a certain system is madness.

[Rudolf's Mate]

Interesting to note the Augustyn bashing that's taken place since Saturday.

 

Thank feck he didn't make the errors that Souttar did (obviously Souttar is above criticism on here I note) otherwise this place would've had a server meltdown.

 

One can only try and imagine if Oshinawa made those errors

Isn't there a thread on Souttar's errors? If so I fail to see how he's above criticism.

 

As for imagining if Juwon had made the errors. I'm not even saying that Augustyn made errors. I'm highlighting the fact Robbie's claiming his philosophy is to play it out from the back when Augustyn punts it at every opportunity.

 

Souttar had a rare nightmare of a game and has rightly been called out as have others. Juwon has been rightly called out for most of the season however he's undoubtably improved.

 

Augustyn is a decent defender whom, like others has the odd bomb scare moment in his locker. Passing from defence isn't in his locker!

[JamboAl]

Robbie says

"I felt Don Cowie playing there on ?Saturday would give us that. It also gave us ?the chance to change shape, which we did in the first half. We brought Callum on at half-time to try and get more into the game."

 

Is he admitting he ballsed things up?

 

[Spencer]

Just read comments attributed to Robbie in this article and I have to say they're absolutely embarrassing. They're also a prelude to a CP departure in the summer imo. If so they're hardly comments to maximise value.

 

I'm no fan of 3-5-2 for a number of reasons but I'd say Paterson is one of the more suited players in our squad to that formation. To suggest a woefully inept Nicholson or a 33 year midfielder are better options are simply the comments from a man who isn't the solution.

 

Robbie is continually churning out lines about "third place finish" and "promoted team". He clearly feels that by coming out with this stuff he's creating the impression of continued progression. Whilst there's no doubt we'd all have taken where we are now if offered it 20 months ago, we also need to be honest enough to say we're 3rd in a crap league that's only going to get stronger.

 

Furthermore the "promoted team" routinely churned line is a bit misleading in some sense given the reasons behind our relegation and prior top flight experience within our squad. Who should realistically have finished above of this season that didn't based in budget and squad composition? I'd respectfully suggest no team below us should've finished above us based on the various comparisons you're able to draw.

 

Things now start to get serious for RN & CL. We move towards stadium redevelopment and the desire to have an average gate of 20,000 in the potential backdrop of renewed old firm duopoly. Hearts without the burden of colossal debt which stifled progress for decades, are now in a position to make a meaningful impact in Scottish football.

 

Reading articles like this in reference to one of our best young players doesn't led me to conclude that we've the right man or men at the helm to take us forward.

[Gambo]

3-5-2 (i though first half it was a 3-5-1-1) works If some of these 5 get close to the forward two, but more often than not they were on top of our defence, even when we had possession hence the sideways/backward passing.

 

Also in a 3-5-2 it is my opinion that you need the '2' to work the opposition defence as a partnership and making room for midfielders to run into, but we generally have one of the '2'sitting a bit deep.

 

On the OP point of Paterson being suited to 3-5-2 I would say he is. It was evident at Motherwell again last week that someone has got in his head re 'going forward', although he did go forward at times there were other times he was hovering on the halfway line when normally he would be up helping whoever had the ball on the right.

[Finlay James]

Football manager makes tactical switch in meaningless end of season game..........shocking!

[Thomaso]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/robbie-neilson-hearts-won-t-abandon-their-passing-style-1-4116076

 

That comment at the bottom worries me about Neilson and his tactics. Paterson is probably the perfect wing-back type so not sure what to make of that comment. How he can think Nicholson and then Cowie are better options makes you wonder if Paterson is away this summer. Liam Smith would also be better in that position than the said two as he likes to get forward and can defend;

 

3-5-2 on a tight pitch at Tynecastle just doesn't work. Ok on wider pitches when you can allow the ball to be out wide and use the extra man in the middle.

 

3-5-2 my erse!!!

 

Neilson had us set up in a negative 3-6-1 formation.  Juanma was up front in splendid isolation.

 

And as for dropping our most powerful player - do me a favour Robbie!!

 

One man up, Cowie out wide right FFS, no Paterson, everybody behind the ball - yeah you're a tactical genius Robbie!

[GavK1012]

God how much do I want to embrace our style on the park as much as I do the direction we are going off...but performances as negative as they have been and for our gaffer to say CP canny play as a wing back is just getting a bit too much to expect to deal with...

 

Its probably a position he was born to play IMO...

 

I am not turning on Robbie but he aint half making it hard to get excited about on the park Hearts performances and anticipation going forward...

 

Big sigh....

[Livvyjambo]

If the rumours are true of Paterson not wanting to sign a new deal he will be one of a number to leave the club soon. All will help to finance new stand

[letsalllaughathobos]

Tbf, if I was playing a 3-5-2 I would go,

 

Alexander,

Souttar,ozturk,Rossi,

Paterson,djoum,kitchen,Walker,oshinwa,

Reilly,juanma,

 

I think Paterson and oshinwa are both suited to lwb and rwb, but both need freedom,

 

No point playing that way then telling then to not go over halfway line,

 

I think Robbie is covering for either 6 in middle or 5 at the back in the Christmas tree formation that every time we have played it we have lost.

Just admit you are wrong Robbie not a big one,

 

Codie should never be on the park again a shambles of a player

[Thomaso]

God how much do I want to embrace our style on the park as much as I do the direction we are going off...but performances as negative as they have been and for our gaffer to say CP canny play as a wing back is just getting a bit too much to expect to deal with...

 

Its probably a position he was born to play IMO...

 

I am not turning on Robbie but he aint half making it hard to get excited about on the park Hearts performances and anticipation going forward...

 

Big sigh....

 

My feeling entirely.  Walking out of the Wheatfield after the game all you could hear around me was Hearts fans complaining about Neilson's 'safety first' mind set.

 

Ann Budge, FoH, New stand, etc, are all real feel good factors, however these to date have papered over the cracks of Neilson tinkering, and starting in the wrong formation in numerous games this year.  There are a huge amount of sensible Hearts fans who are now having serious doubts over Robbie and to be honest the negative influence of Levein. 

[Jammy T]

It's funny given the slating that you lot give Neilson for being defensive that the reason he said Cowie played ahead of Paterson was for attacking reasons. And in theory a midfielder ahead of a defender in that role is more attacking.

 

However that doesn't really ring true to me.

 

I don't think you need to be Alex Ferguson to know that if there is a right back anywhere in Scotland that is suited to attacking right wing back role it is Calum Paterson.

 

If I am being quite honest it is abundantly clear that Paterson would be the better more attacking option.

 

Thing is I don't believe Neilson.

 

I think we've got a deal to sell Paterson or the club have decided to sell Paterson. Hence we tried that formation without him.

 

I don't have a problem with 3-5-2, actually I like it in theory and I think with Rossi in the team we have near perfect CBs to play it. And we played it last time out against Celtic and we played well - for all the ignorant of you moaning about experimentation.

 

But I'll stick with my instinct here. Robbie is planning for life without Paterson IMO. Which is fine because it is our operating model now to be honest.

[Thomaso]

It's funny given the slating that you lot give Neilson for being defensive that the reason he said Cowie played ahead of Paterson was for attacking reasons. And in theory a midfielder ahead of a defender in that role is more attacking.

 

However that doesn't really ring true to me.

 

I don't think you need to be Alex Ferguson to know that if there is a right back anywhere in Scotland that is suited to attacking right wing back role it is Calum Paterson.

 

If I am being quite honest it is abundantly clear that Paterson would be the better more attacking option.

 

Thing is I don't believe Neilson.

 

I think we've got a deal to sell Paterson or the club have decided to sell Paterson. Hence we tried that formation without him.

 

I don't have a problem with 3-5-2, actually I like it in theory and I think with Rossi in the team we have near perfect CBs to play it. And we played it last time out against Celtic and we played well - for all the ignorant of you moaning about experimentation.

 

But I'll stick with my instinct here. Robbie is planning for life without Paterson IMO. Which is fine because it is our operating model now to be honest.

 

I don't have a problem with 3-5-2 either.

 

The problem is we did not start 3-5-2.  We actually were set up 3-6-1 with Juanma totally isolated upfront.

 

As for this Paterson chat, I get the feeling that this is a bit of a smoke screen to cover Robbie's arse when he AGAIN started the team in the wrong formation.

[Livvyjambo]

It's that bad I reckon it's a misquote

[Seymour M Hersh]

 

Codie should never be on the park again a shambles of a player

 

Who?

[King prawn]

3-5-2, 4-3-2-1, 5-4-1......bollox to them all football isn't complicated you play a solid 4-4-2 formation with your strongest players and forget about who you're playing. Have a little and large striker combination ala Sandy Clark /robbo, DE Vries/Weir, Hamilton/Adam and it works! Coaches these days just try and complicate such a simple game. Oh and Robbie hoofing the ball away from danger from time to time isn't a bad thing either!

 

 

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Juventus, Manchester City, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Arsenal - none of them play 4-4-2 - but to ruin my own point, Leicester do.

 

Nevermind....  

[Thomaso]

 

Robbie says

"I felt Don Cowie playing there on ?Saturday would give us that. It also gave us ?the chance to change shape, which we did in the first half. We brought Callum on at half-time to try and get more into the game."

 

Is he admitting he ballsed things up?

 

 

 

Like his boss, Robbie will never admit to making a mistake.

[Thomaso]

To be honest I think Paterson's BEST position is as a right wing back.

 

Tremendous engine, pace, better now at delivering into the box and can shoot.

 

Good tackler too.

 

And a good defensive/attacking header in both boxes!

[3fingersreid]

If the rumours are true of Paterson not wanting to sign a new deal he will be one of a number to leave the club soon. All will help to finance new stand

Whilst I would love CP to stay ,I think he has all the attributes to make it to the very top of his profession, selling him for a shit load of cash will certainly help to finance our new stand

Downside is if we don't have an attractive ,enjoyable to watch product on the park , it really won't matter as those fans who are somewhere between the hardcore support but are not fair weather fans will in all likelihood not be going along to watch us .which means empty seats

 

For what it's worth a 4-4-2 formation for me please ,defenders defending ,midfielders dominating opponents and forwards scoring ,simple really