BBC Leaders Debate 2016

[JamboX2]

Willie Rennie is coming across strong. Nicola Sturgeon seemed shocked by the support Dugdale and Rennie got on opposing a referendum in the next 5 years. Davidson has lied on the Clyde. Patrick Harvie has been good.

 

So far my ranking:

 

1. Rennie

2. Harvie

3. Dugdale/Sturgeon

4. Davidson

[ToadKiller Dog]

Ruth has brought her cheerleaders along ,same mob from the question time show a while back , hence the large rather over the top cheers every time she speaks .

[chuck berrys hairline]

Always been impressed with Patrick Harvie when he speaks. Seems the most reasonable person out all the candidates.

[ToadKiller Dog]

Sturgeon doing better on the NHS debate , was out played on the phoney 2ND referendum debate .

Patrick Harvie and Rennie always do OK in these debates as they go in with less pressure .

 

Don't see any game changing performance tonight .

[JAYEL]

Ruth has brought her cheerleaders along ,same mob from the question time show a while back , hence the large rather over the top cheers every time she speaks .

 

 

Both BBC  

 

 

Shockerooony

[Yoda]

Agree Harvie is coming over better, but I just wonder what is the purpose of  the Greens? 

 

He directs all his attacks on Ruth Davidson and never questions Nicola Sturgeon's record.

 

The Tories have never been in power in Scotland and never will be?  Health & Education have been devolved to Holyrood for years.

 

Maybe he should just ask the Greens voters to vote SNP.

[Irufushi]

Davidson the best.

 

Wee jimmy krankie the worst.

[moogsy]

Greens will be getting my vote. SNP are utterly toothless on the issue of raising taxes. Dugdale managed to trip herself up a few times and ended up looking silly.

[Sarah O]

Davidson the best.

 

Wee jimmy krankie the worst.

Childish name calling by far the worst.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Childish name calling by far the worst.

Humourless post.

 

By far the worst.

 

And Krankie got her ass kicked by Willie and was visibly shocked and rocking over the roar from the audience supporting him.

 

Independence my arse.

[Ribble]

If ever there was a case against independance then it was the level of political discourse on show tonight!

 

Nearly all of them failing to remember their own manifesto's, petty bickering and I for one hated the 'let's pretend to be pals by using first names' nonsense not to mention the first minister constantly lowering herself to the level of the Daily Mail with her constant use of 'The Tories', show some decorum and just say the conservative party! 

[washniklaw]

I'm seriously considering voting Green's on Thursday. PR makes it a worthwhile thing to do and I like their approach to almost all subjects.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Would never vote for the SNP and after suffering some of the most infective debate ever seen on screen, certainly wouldn't vote Green. They would be as well just telling their supporters to vote SNP as it was noticeable that they never questioned or opposed anything Sturgeon said. What a pointless party the Greena are.

[JamboX2]

At the end of the debate I'd rank the candidates on performance like this:

 

1. Rennie

2. Harvie

3. Dugdale

4. Sturgeon

5. Davidson

 

Thought Rennie provided the most thoughtful and honest answers. There wasn't much between Sturgeon and Dugdale however the explanation of the approach to a second referendum was a bit vacuous for my liking and puts her fourth. Harvie was again impressive in terms of his passionate approach to tax and jobs. Thought Davidson just shouted and never really answered, always deflected onto Dugdale or Sturgeon.

 

I didn't think Sturgeon was very hard hitting tonight. Thought she was pretty tame in her approach. Not as aggressive or as hard hitting as she was in the uk debates. Which I find odd.

 

The audience I thought was largely mixed, kind of think they gave most leaders a fair hearing. What I did notice was that Sturgeon's lengthy and detailed answer on her approach to job creation was pretty mutedly received. Whereas Rennie, Dugdale and Harvie seemed to get a bigger cheer and applause when talking about it and saying we will raise X pounds to invest in education for growth etc.

 

A longer debate with more audience participation would've been better. It's an important issue an election, why the BBC don't seem to make these shows more in depth and interesting is beyond me.

[jambos are go!]

I still think Sturgeon looks thin and pale which may explain her lethargy. Seems clear though that the other party leaders have sussed how to debate with her.

[The Treasurer]

For the most part all the leaders, bar one, can promise the earth, knowing they'll never have to actually deliver.

[Boris]

I watched a wee bit of it then turned it off as it was playground stuff, imo.

 

From what I saw, I though Dugdale was flapping, Davidson is horrible, Sturgeon never got out of second gear.  Harvie and Rennie were ok, but as mentioned, they have nothing to lose.

[Boris]

 constant use of 'The Tories', show some decorum and just say the conservative party! 

 

Don't you mean the Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition Party?

 

What's wrong with Tory?  That's their name!

[XB52]

Waste of time and the usual audience loading from the BBC. Stv debates are always better as they are actually unbiased. Be glad when Thursday is over and the SNP can get on with running the country and our unionist posters can start a 2021 election thread and go on and on and on about the referendum

[Boris]

Oh dear, Ruth lying again?

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14464140.Riddle_deepens_over_Ruth_Davidson_and_allegations_of_referendum_election_fraud/?ref=ar

 

What is it with Tories and electoral fraud?

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/michael-crick-on-politics/

[Sarah O]

Waste of time and the usual audience loading from the BBC. Stv debates are always better as they are actually unbiased. Be glad when Thursday is over and the SNP can get on with running the country and our unionist posters can start a 2021 election thread and go on and on and on about the referendum

 

The sheer volume of seethe towards indie supporters from

the victors in 2014 is incredible.

[HaymarketJambo]

I thought it was a bore fest last night.

 

Harvie was the best but like the other party leader's has nothing to lose apart from Nicola Sturgeon who has.

 

I agree with one of the post's Sturgeon never got out of 2nd gear, but she did fine last night.  

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Cant see it on the player can someone link it up?

[Boris]

Cant see it on the player can someone link it up?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36183370

[michael_bolton]

It must be quite difficult to debate with grown adults who genuinely ask us to believe that they think the government shouldn't have a referendum on a subject even if the majority of the population would like one.

 

Stop and consider it. It's an absurd position they are asking the government to take. Add in to the deliberate stupidity and faux outrage over the out of context 'once in a generation' issue and Nicola Sturgeon has a tough job.

 

It's not easy to debate with a pack of other people who are outnumbering you and deliberately missing the point of an argument.

[ToadKiller Dog]

BBC claim each of the big 4 parties got 20% of seats each and the greens ( though is arguable that the lib dumbs are bigger ) got 10% .

So basically loaded 70/30 to pro unionist parties rather than based on previous vote share .

[Psychedelicropcircle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36183370

No sure if I should say thanks boris, the unionists trying to lap up as much of the 55% ers and realistically because NS says if there is a majority. 15mins of pathetic patronising pish.

[Boris]

No sure if I should say thanks boris, the unionists trying to lap up as much of the 55% ers and realistically because NS says if there is a majority. 15mins of pathetic patronising pish.

 

Hahaha, not sure if I should be thanked for inflicting that on others too!

 

The point made earlier regards the make up of the audience was interestiing.  It's a sort of self inflicted echo chamber, giving the appearance that Independence or the thought of another referendum is greatly opposed, yet the SNP still ends up with nearly 50% of the vote.

 

I'm surprised (am I?) that no political commentators have picked up on this.

 

It would seem, given SNP pollings and electoral success, that the only thing that may harm them is, you guessed it, another referendum.  So, by always talking about how there should never be another one, despite the SNP not saying that they would have one (material change etc), is this why the NO parties are so keen to keep harping on about the referendum, despite wanting to "heal the scars" of the last one?  

[Darren]

Far too much of that debate was given over to the prospect of a second independence referendum, given it is very unlikely to happen during the next five years. 

[Ribble]

Don't you mean the Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition Party?

 

What's wrong with Tory?  That's their name!

 

Nickname surely? Didn't notice others referring to the SNP as 'the nats'.

 

Maybe just me but expect a bit better from the first minister (regardless of party)

[Arnold Rothstein]

It must be quite difficult to debate with grown adults who genuinely ask us to believe that they think the government shouldn't have a referendum on a subject even if the majority of the population would like one.

 

Stop and consider it. It's an absurd position they are asking the government to take. Add in to the deliberate stupidity and faux outrage over the out of context 'once in a generation' issue and Nicola Sturgeon has a tough job.

 

It's not easy to debate with a pack of other people who are outnumbering you and deliberately missing the point of an argument.

How do we judge the appetite for independence for the next five years? We can't in any meaningful way is the answer.

[Thunderstruck]

Hahaha, not sure if I should be thanked for inflicting that on others too!

 

The point made earlier regards the make up of the audience was interestiing. It's a sort of self inflicted echo chamber, giving the appearance that Independence or the thought of another referendum is greatly opposed, yet the SNP still ends up with nearly 50% of the vote.

 

I'm surprised (am I?) that no political commentators have picked up on this.

 

It would seem, given SNP pollings and electoral success, that the only thing that may harm them is, you guessed it, another referendum. So, by always talking about how there should never be another one, despite the SNP not saying that they would have one (material change etc), is this why the NO parties are so keen to keep harping on about the referendum, despite wanting to "heal the scars" of the last one?

Like it or not, the leitmotif of political debate over the past few years has been Independence and the drivers of this recurring (never ending) theme have been the secessionists - "the Dream will never die".

 

If this forum is a weather-vane of opinion (unlikely, I know), those frustrated by the Referendum are the loudest voices in the debate and this naturally stirs up response.

 

Willie Rennie made the point forcefully last night that this constant reference to the 2014 referendum and the possibility of another in the event of some vague change of circumstance is doing nothing for the benefit of Scotland as a whole.

 

He is quite right, it is not conducive to investment, growth, jobs, etc. and it would be far better for us all if another 5 years weren't wasted tilting at this particular windmill. Instead, it might be best if energy was devoted to actually making a positive difference.

 

In any event, the whole debate is verging on pointlessness as the economic high tide has well and truly ebbed and anyone who thinks a majority will vote for independence if it means personal hardship has another think coming. Sturgeon knows this hence her saying just enough to keep the fanatics happy while not scaring the rest (too much).

[i8hibsh]

Agree Harvie is coming over better, but I just wonder what is the purpose of  the Greens? 

 

He directs all his attacks on Ruth Davidson and never questions Nicola Sturgeon's record.

 

The Tories have never been in power in Scotland and never will be?  Health & Education have been devolved to Holyrood for years.

 

Maybe he should just ask the Greens voters to vote SNP.

 

 

Totally agree.  Thing is though he would not come across well to many by questioning the SNP.  There are only two reasons people even recognise him as a bona fide politician is a) he wrote into Jim?l?fix it back in the day and he has been getting a ?colly buckie? from the SNP since day one.  He has absolutely nothing to input at all.  He just spouts the usual pish about Trident, bankers, social justice and the Tories.  

[Boris]

Like it or not, the leitmotif of political debate over the past few years has been Independence and the drivers of this recurring (never ending) theme have been the secessionists - "the Dream will never die".

 

If this forum is a weather-vane of opinion (unlikely, I know), those frustrated by the Referendum are the loudest voices in the debate and this naturally stirs up response.

 

Willie Rennie made the point forcefully last night that this constant reference to the 2014 referendum and the possibility of another in the event of some vague change of circumstance is doing nothing for the benefit of Scotland as a whole.

 

He is quite right, it is not conducive to investment, growth, jobs, etc. and it would be far better for us all if another 5 years weren't wasted tilting at this particular windmill. Instead, it might be best if energy was devoted to actually making a positive difference.

 

In any event, the whole debate is verging on pointlessness as the economic high tide has well and truly ebbed and anyone who thinks a majority will vote for independence if it means personal hardship has another think coming. Sturgeon knows this hence her saying just enough to keep the fanatics happy while not scaring the rest (too much).

 

Willie Rennie did have a point, but I suppose what I'm getting at is that despite NO winning, the party most associated with independence goes from strength to strength.  Your point regards Sturgeon is, i think spot on.  Which goes back to what I was saying in that it is the only thing the other parties can use to try to deflect support for the SNP>

[Thunderstruck]

Willie Rennie did have a point, but I suppose what I'm getting at is that despite NO winning, the party most associated with independence goes from strength to strength. Your point regards Sturgeon is, i think spot on. Which goes back to what I was saying in that it is the only thing the other parties can use to try to deflect support for the SNP>

I am sure that a good part of the vote for the SNP arises from their heavy use of the anti-Tory card which resonates with large sections of the Scottish electorate. It was used with effect in the Westminster election and was used last night. As someone else said on here, Sturgeon rarely makes a statement that doesn't use "Tory" in a pejorative sense.

 

The other parties should have been making more of the SNP's failings over the last nine years (there is plenty there to work with) but it has been too little and, probably, too late.

[Boris]

I am sure that a good part of the vote for the SNP arises from their heavy use of the anti-Tory card which resonates with large sections of the Scottish electorate. It was used with effect in the Westminster election and was used last night. As someone else said on here, Sturgeon rarely makes a statement that doesn't use "Tory" in a pejorative sense.

 

The other parties should have been making more of the SNP's failings over the last nine years (there is plenty there to work with) but it has been too little and, probably, too late.

 

The Tories only have themselves to blame that the word itself has such a negative conotation.  The SNP aren't doing anything that Labour (or the Liberals) haven't done for decades before.

 

And if the Tories want to be the opposition, by default rather than by choice if you look at Labour's implosion, then they will as equally be attacked and held to account as they will the government.

[Thunderstruck]

The Tories only have themselves to blame that the word itself has such a negative conotation. The SNP aren't doing anything that Labour (or the Liberals) haven't done for decades before.

 

And if the Tories want to be the opposition, by default rather than by choice if you look at Labour's implosion, then they will as equally be attacked and held to account as they will the government.

I don't follow why the Conservatives should be attacked or held to account if they are not in power. Power comes with responsibility.

 

A case for Scottish politicians to "grow up", stop blaming others and, instead, sieze the opportunity to do what they are paid to do and be public servants.

 

David Torrance, as ever, gets to the heart of the matter and his article in this morning's edition is apposite or "bang on".

http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14464869.David_Torrance__Scottish_nationalists_and_Brexiteers_have_much_in_common__Both_are_utterly_vacuous/

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I am sure that a good part of the vote for the SNP arises from their heavy use of the anti-Tory card which resonates with large sections of the Scottish electorate. It was used with effect in the Westminster election and was used last night. As someone else said on here, Sturgeon rarely makes a statement that doesn't use "Tory" in a pejorative sense.

 

The other parties should have been making more of the SNP's failings over the last nine years (there is plenty there to work with) but it has been too little and, probably, too late.

 

Not so sure about how much difference this is actually making, as Labour are equally quick to blame the 'Tories' for anything and everything.

 

Example being, Dugdale trying to defend Labour's use of the PFI / PPP arrangements to build schools, she has said on a few occasions that Labour only used them because of 18 years of Tory underfunding, forgetting that it was a Labour controlled Government in Scotland at the time.

 

As you point out in another post, I really do wish that every party stops the finger pointing and the blaming of each other, as is the case of the schools in Edinburgh.

Labour are blaming the Tories for the mess, the Tories are blaming the SNP, and the SNP are blaming Labour, just get the finger out and fix them then you can finger point.

It really is playground stuff, it's his fault, no it's not it's him that did it, no it wasn't it was a big boy and he ran away.

 

And they wonder why people are being turned off politics.

[Boris]

I don't follow why the Conservatives should be attacked or held to account if they are not in power. Power comes with responsibility.

 

A case for Scottish politicians to "grow up", stop blaming others and, instead, sieze the opportunity to do what they are paid to do and be public servants.

 

David Torrance, as ever, gets to the heart of the matter and his article in this morning's edition is apposite or "bang on".

http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14464869.David_Torrance__Scottish_nationalists_and_Brexiteers_have_much_in_common__Both_are_utterly_vacuous/

 

But they are at Westminster and, despite devolved matters, still impact on Northern Britain.

 

I'll read the Torrance article later (cant access it just now) but I totally agree that politicians need to grow up and take responsibility.

[aussieh]

I don't follow why the Conservatives should be attacked or held to account if they are not in power. Power comes with responsibility.

 

A case for Scottish politicians to "grow up", stop blaming others and, instead, sieze the opportunity to do what they are paid to do and be public servants.

 

David Torrance, as ever, gets to the heart of the matter and his article in this morning's edition is apposite or "bang on".

http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14464869.David_Torrance__Scottish_nationalists_and_Brexiteers_have_much_in_common__Both_are_utterly_vacuous/

The Tories are the UK government, or did you forget.

Not by Scotland mind.

 

I've a few names for the Tories, especially Scottish voting Tories.

[i8hibsh]

The Tories are the UK government, or did you forget.

Not by Scotland mind.

 

I've a few names for the Tories, especially Scottish voting Tories.

 

 

Ah Mr Bitter, how the devil are you?

 

I have to call you on your comment "Not by Scotland mind" as it is 100% irrelevant. That is unless you are unaware that Scotland voted recently to be considered part of the UK and not as an independent nation.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

Would never vote for the SNP and after suffering some of the most infective debate ever seen on screen, certainly wouldn't vote Green. They would be as well just telling their supporters to vote SNP as it was noticeable that they never questioned or opposed anything Sturgeon said. What a pointless party the Greena are.

 

You weren't listening. Harvie ripped into the SNP twice (I think); however, his use of language was careful - not too negative, and quickly segueing into a vision of what the Greens would do. I wouldn't vote for the Greens but he was by far the most impressive last night. His riff on the ubiquitous misuse of the word 'respect' was excellent. 

 

The other parties should have been making more of the SNP's failings over the last nine years (there is plenty there to work with) but it has been too little and, probably, too late.

 

You weren't listening either. There was a lot of making of the SNP's failing. The leaders are slowly learning that they need to balance ripping into the SNP with their vision and policies. Harvie and Rennie were the most effective at this. Davidson is too obsessed with making hay of #indyref2, while Dugdale floundered a few times - they both have work to do. 

[aussieh]

Ah Mr Bitter, how the devil are you?

 

I have to call you on your comment "Not by Scotland mind" as it is 100% irrelevant. That is unless you are unaware that Scotland voted recently to be considered part of the UK and not as an independent nation.

Says the hater.

Roll on Thursday , a good pumping for the combined trumpets of belters' the gither.

 

Next stop brexit, then bye chicken pie, nice knowing you rUK.

NOT.

 

 

HAWL, Vladimir,

Want to rent a nuclear base.

[i8hibsh]

Says the hater.

Roll on Thursday , a good pumping for the combined trumpets of belters' the gither.

 

Next stop brexit, then bye chicken pie, nice knowing you rUK.

NOT.

 

 

HAWL, Vladimir,

Want to rent a nuclear base.

 

 

Er, ok then.

[aussieh]

Er, ok then.

Denial.

Indy's coming soon.

And its gonnae be delightful, but do you know what's gonnae make even sweater, your bitter tears when it happens.

The pain and seethe is gonnae be fecking glorious.

[Thunderstruck]

You weren't listening either. There was a lot of making of the SNP's failing. The leaders are slowly learning that they need to balance ripping into the SNP with their vision and policies. Harvie and Rennie were the most effective at this. Davidson is too obsessed with making hay of #indyref2, while Dugdale floundered a few times - they both have work to do.

I did say "too little, too late". There is no point in becoming vocal in serious failings in Health, Education, Policing, Local Government, Infrastructure, etc. at the 11th hour - these things need to be drip fed into the public psyche over a period of time.

 

There is a lot wrong with the way that the SNP have used their time in government and the opposition should have been shouting this from the rooftops instead of allowing themselves to be dragged into petty squabbles.

 

The bottom line is that we look to be condemned to another 5 years of mismanagement when a more sophisticated electorate might sense that minority government with coalition and some consensus steers a better course than the extremes produced by tribalism.

 

Another 5 years that will doubtless please the secessionists who look for "independence and damn the cost" and who will look forward to a few more years of grievance politics.

[aussieh]

I did say "too little, too late". There is no point in becoming vocal in serious failings in Health, Education, Policing, Local Government, Infrastructure, etc. at the 11th hour - these things need to be drip fed into the public psyche over a period of time.

 

There is a lot wrong with the way that the SNP have used their time in government and the opposition should have been shouting this from the rooftops instead of allowing themselves to be dragged into petty squabbles.

 

The bottom line is that we look to be condemned to another 5 years of mismanagement when a more sophisticated electorate might sense that minority government with coalition and some consensus steers a better course than the extremes produced by tribalism.

 

Another 5 years that will doubtless please the secessionists who look for "independence and damn the cost" and who will look forward to a few more years of grievance politics.

The only ones who condemned us to anything, were no voters.

Condemned to Tory governments and English rule.

[Arnold Rothstein]

The only ones who condemned us to anything, were no voters.

Condemned to Tory governments and English rule.

You really need to get over it. People had their own vote and cast it the way they felt most appropriate. You can't get your own way the whole time. Playground stuff.

[XB52]

You really need to get over it. People had their own vote and cast it the way they felt most appropriate. You can't get your own way the whole time. Playground stuff.

don't waste your time trying to get any sensible debate with him, I'm positive he is a unionist troll as I have never met anyone so rabidly anti English/british in my life

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Like it or not, the leitmotif of political debate over the past few years has been Independence and the drivers of this recurring (never ending) theme have been the secessionists - "the Dream will never die".

 

If this forum is a weather-vane of opinion (unlikely, I know), those frustrated by the Referendum are the loudest voices in the debate and this naturally stirs up response.

 

.

Whilst having never done a stat on here (JKB) but I'll say more no voters bring up indyref that yes voters in all Scottish political threads, fitting as it looked like that on this programme as well.