Hillsborough Verdict

[chester copperpot]

The football team involved here is totally irrelevent.

 

96 football fans lost their life due to the incompetence of the authorities involved and some of the posts on here disgust me.

 

I'd say the same if it was Hearts/Hibs/Celtic/Rangers/Manchester United etc etc.

[Jamboelite]

You do realise that you are not allowed to question the impeccable behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day. I hope you aren't suggesting that the jury were swayed by an emotional campaign being forced down their throats over 20 odd years, and that the determination of fans without tickets to force their way into a football ground in any way shape or form led to people, with tickets being crushed, because that simply is not allowed.

 

Do I feel sorry for the parents of the deceased. Of course, who wouldn't. Well, the parents got the 'justice' they wanted, but then again, they would never have accepted any justice that didn't absolve completely their own support as minds have been firmly entrenched over time.

 

Were the police to blame? Yep, of course they were partly responsible. Was stewarding and stadium design responsible? Probably yes. Should they have admitted responsibility earlier? Yes, of course they should.

 

Should the Liverpool fans acknowledge their own failings? Well that will never happen.

 

Finally, can we please lay this whole thing to bed now this is over or will we have to listen to the professional scousers going on and on about this for a few years yet. They have after all, managed to conveniently forget Heysel.

I suggest you read up on the subject, if i were you i would have before making a very very poor post.

[Gene Parmesan]

You do realise that you are not allowed to question the impeccable behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day. I hope you aren't suggesting that the jury were swayed by an emotional campaign being forced down their throats over 20 odd years, and that the determination of fans without tickets to force their way into a football ground in any way shape or form led to people, with tickets being crushed, because that simply is not allowed.

 

Do I feel sorry for the parents of the deceased. Of course, who wouldn't. Well, the parents got the 'justice' they wanted, but then again, they would never have accepted any justice that didn't absolve completely their own support as minds have been firmly entrenched over time.

 

Were the police to blame? Yep, of course they were partly responsible. Was stewarding and stadium design responsible? Probably yes. Should they have admitted responsibility earlier? Yes, of course they should.

 

Should the Liverpool fans acknowledge their own failings? Well that will never happen.

 

Finally, can we please lay this whole thing to bed now this is over or will we have to listen to the professional scousers going on and on about this for a few years yet. They have after all, managed to conveniently forget Heysel.

 

Repulsive.

[Boab]

Now that Mutt and Jeff have received their daily dose of attention, can we return to the implications of these verdicts.

 

I can understand some families being happy...if that's the word...to leave it there but there must be others who will go on until people pay for this.

 

I would support them in this.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Boab

[Governor Tarkin]

The football team involved here is totally irrelevent.

 

I'm not sure that's Malinga's point though, at least I hope it's not.

 

He/she is coming in for a bit of stick on this thread and I'm not sure it's entirely warranted.

 

It's absolutely right that an individual or a group of individuals should examine their own behaviour or any actions which may have contributed to a particular outcome or situation.

 

His beef is surely with the fact that one can't ask questions without fear of being branded a 'hideous individual' - or some other charge that he's had levelled at him on this thread - and not an actual insinuation that this whole shooting match was the Liverpool fans' fault in any appreciable way.

 

Anyway, I'm glad that the families and friends have some kind of closure, and that the lies, slander, and ineptitude displayed by the South Yorkshire rozzers and sections of the British establishment and media have been exposed for what they are. A bloody scandal.

[269miles]

I think lessons were learned in terms of how we watch football and how the fans are controlled, wouldn;t you say?

 

If individuals or companies are negligent then, yes, accountability is needed.

This is what needs to happen next. The FA, SWFC, SYorks police are all on the hook. Just for starters.

[CollyWolly]

This is what needs to happen next. The FA, SWFC, SYorks police are all on the hook. Just for starters.

I think I am correct in saying that all of those organisations have accepted some degree of civil liability and contributed jointly to the compensation fund for the victims families.

 

The level of compensation paid to date has been pretty low given the now accepted levels of culpability on the head of each organisation. Each of them have to be hammered for punitive damages.

 

Their is also now the question of corporate criminal responsibility per organisation as well as the question of individuals themselves being prosecuted for their part in events.

 

Duckenfield is the obvious candidate for prosecution and he is surely looking at a hefty prison sentence now, not only for his incompetence and dereliction of his duty but for lying about it and denying and obstructing justice for so many years. I imagine he is pretty much a broken man. He still has to be held to account for his criminality IMO. He's not the only one either.

[Mikey1874]

The people still implying Liverpool fans were responsible

 

It wouldn't have mattered if the late comers all had tickets or were sober. We all know surely a lot of fans turn up late. Happens every week at Tynecastle. The overcrowding and channelling.of fans to the central pen was the major immediate cause of asphyxiation which as you may have seen was cause of death of 90 of the deceased.

 

Leeds fans in 1987 and Liverpool in 1988 suffered similar overcrowding.

[Justin Z]

I'm not sure that's Malinga's point though, at least I hope it's not.

 

He/she is coming in for a bit of stick on this thread and I'm not sure it's entirely warranted.

 

It's absolutely right that an individual or a group of individuals should examine their own behaviour or any actions which may have contributed to a particular outcome or situation.

 

His beef is surely with the fact that one can't ask questions without fear of being branded a 'hideous individual' - or some other charge that he's had levelled at him on this thread - and not an actual insinuation that this whole shooting match was the Liverpool fans' fault in any appreciable way.

 

Anyway, I'm glad that the families and friends have some kind of closure, and that the lies, slander, and ineptitude displayed by the South Yorkshire rozzers and sections of the British establishment and media have been exposed for what they are. A bloody scandal.

 

But there are people in this very thread even, debating the finer points and asking questions and not being branded hideous.  The difference is that they do it without an agenda, whereas it's pretty clear to me at least that he and other posters had one.

 

In fact, that agenda is a nice segue--"impeccable behaviour" was a line trotted out and I've seen synonymous claims elsewhere.  There is no heightened legal standard of behaviour that I'm aware of for a football fan that extends beyond what a nondescript, everyday member of the populace is required to meet.  So in finding that the fans did nothing wrong, the jury is simply stating "we didn't think they were behaving outside the broad range of behaviours that are perfectly legal under our system".  By contrast, then, the failure of those in charge to meet their duty of care, the proximate cause of which was massive injury and loss of life, is what is rightfully being scrutinised.

 

Nobody as far as I can tell, the jury definitely included, is necessarily saying the Liverpool supporters' behaviour--as a whole--was of such a high standard as to be impeccable.  What they are saying was, those supporters had no reason to believe that any actions they were taking might possibly lead to this outcome.  Entering a gate that's just been opened up and rushing to try to get to within sight of the pitch after the match has kicked off?  Completely reasonable behaviour in the eyes of the jury.  If someone doesn't agree, that's fine, but I'd question their motives and prejudices if they then posted their disagreement in the manner of a couple of people in this thread.

[gashauskis9]

This by David Conn in the Guardian is absolutely must read

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

Very difficult to read this without getting emotional. Intense, but world class writing.

[upgotheheads]

Football fans - or at least that proportion of them who come from the 'lower orders' -  are and remain second class citizens.

 

The police - whose most important function is to protect the property and interests of the Establishment -  must be above reproach.

 

A verdict which takes 27 years to achieve is not justice. Justice delayed is justice denied as someone said.

 

I will bet that no criminal charges will be brought against anyone involved, some of whom will be dead anyway.

 

What chance the Chilcott enquiry reporting anytime soon?

 

What chance the 'Battle of Orgreave' enquiry starting.

[jake]

You do realise that you are not allowed to question the impeccable behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day. I hope you aren't suggesting that the jury were swayed by an emotional campaign being forced down their throats over 20 odd years, and that the determination of fans without tickets to force their way into a football ground in any way shape or form led to people, with tickets being crushed, because that simply is not allowed.

 

Do I feel sorry for the parents of the deceased. Of course, who wouldn't. Well, the parents got the 'justice' they wanted, but then again, they would never have accepted any justice that didn't absolve completely their own support as minds have been firmly entrenched over time.

 

Were the police to blame? Yep, of course they were partly responsible. Was stewarding and stadium design responsible? Probably yes. Should they have admitted responsibility earlier? Yes, of course they should.

 

Should the Liverpool fans acknowledge their own failings? Well that will never happen.

 

Finally, can we please lay this whole thing to bed now this is over or will we have to listen to the professional scousers going on and on about this for a few years yet. They have after all, managed to conveniently forget Heysel.

 

Shame on you.

 

Of all the things you could be angry about.

 

The most senior politicians in this country conspiring with senior policemen and a Shitey national press.

 

 

And all those senior people living a life without recrimination.

 

If anyone needs a reason here's one a very big one in a list of many.

 

Do not buy that rag The sun.

 

The rat editor kelvin rat mckenzie.

Hope he is sued.

 

 

Malinga get a grip read about what actually happened.

[Mollo]

Some local people including turnstyle operators and people at the club on the day (that have given evidence previously) would disagree.

 

The outcome is what it is, as said above I don't think there was ever going to be any other outcome. I am pleased the families have some closure and I hope action will be taken where applicable.

 

I'm not commenting further as I don't want to leave myself potentially open to something that is being discussed in courts, but not everyone agrees with that particular part of the verdict.

 

 

Agreed. It was a terrible tragedy but the stadia of the time were a disaster waiting to happen.

 

 

Why would I do that?

 

'Not everyone agrees' you say... That's perfectly normal. But with respect 'some' folk disagreeing doesn't hold enough swing for me to discard what this massive investigation has found. 'Some' people disagreeing isn't enough to make your opinion right. However I do respect we are all entitled to one.

[chester copperpot]

I'm not sure that's Malinga's point though, at least I hope it's not.

 

He/she is coming in for a bit of stick on this thread and I'm not sure it's entirely warranted.

 

It's absolutely right that an individual or a group of individuals should examine their own behaviour or any actions which may have contributed to a particular outcome or situation.

 

His beef is surely with the fact that one can't ask questions without fear of being branded a 'hideous individual' - or some other charge that he's had levelled at him on this thread - and not an actual insinuation that this whole shooting match was the Liverpool fans' fault in any appreciable way.

 

Anyway, I'm glad that the families and friends have some kind of closure, and that the lies, slander, and ineptitude displayed by the South Yorkshire rozzers and sections of the British establishment and media have been exposed for what they are. A bloody scandal.

 

 

He mentions Liverpool fans, and professional scousers in his post, so to me it is entirely relevant.

 

Anyway this is quite an emotive subject for me, so I will politely bow out at this point.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I'm not sure that's Malinga's point though, at least I hope it's not.

 

He/she is coming in for a bit of stick on this thread and I'm not sure it's entirely warranted.

 

It's absolutely right that an individual or a group of individuals should examine their own behaviour or any actions which may have contributed to a particular outcome or situation.

 

His beef is surely with the fact that one can't ask questions without fear of being branded a 'hideous individual' - or some other charge that he's had levelled at him on this thread - and not an actual insinuation that this whole shooting match was the Liverpool fans' fault in any appreciable way.

 

Anyway, I'm glad that the families and friends have some kind of closure, and that the lies, slander, and ineptitude displayed by the South Yorkshire rozzers and sections of the British establishment and media have been exposed for what they are. A bloody scandal.

The fans behaviour was questioned in the inquest. The jury found that they were not to blame. Idiots like Malnga think they know better than those that have spent 2 years looking at evidence

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Very difficult to read this without getting emotional. Intense, but world class writing.

David Conn is the business

[Captain_Peacock]

Leeds fans in 1987 and Liverpool in 1988 suffered similar overcrowding.

 

Correct, the photos below are of the Leeds game at Hillsborough (on some of the photos you will see Leeds flag / scarf). The photos are old but in the area marked with a square you can see fans in the lower tier centre pens escaping the crush and being lifted to the upper tier by fellow fans.

 

For that fixture Leeds fans had to show tickets at two separate police cordons before they reached the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end. There weren't ticketless Leeds fans at this fixture yet the crush in the lower tier centre pens still occurred.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Captain_Peacock

[Mollo]

You do realise that you are not allowed to question the impeccable behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day. I hope you aren't suggesting that the jury were swayed by an emotional campaign being forced down their throats over 20 odd years, and that the determination of fans without tickets to force their way into a football ground in any way shape or form led to people, with tickets being crushed, because that simply is not allowed.

 

Do I feel sorry for the parents of the deceased. Of course, who wouldn't. Well, the parents got the 'justice' they wanted, but then again, they would never have accepted any justice that didn't absolve completely their own support as minds have been firmly entrenched over time.

 

Were the police to blame? Yep, of course they were partly responsible. Was stewarding and stadium design responsible? Probably yes. Should they have admitted responsibility earlier? Yes, of course they should.

 

Should the Liverpool fans acknowledge their own failings? Well that will never happen.

 

Finally, can we please lay this whole thing to bed now this is over or will we have to listen to the professional scousers going on and on about this for a few years yet. They have after all, managed to conveniently forget Heysel.

The jury had an 'emotional' campaign 'forced down their throats'? It's obviously emotional - are you saying it shouldn't be?! As for forced down throats - that's just a dressing up of words to make your point appear more valid really. The jury in every trial has to hear the emotional factors involved.

 

as for Liverpool fans failings - they were young passionate football fans who acted no differently to most cup game away fans of the time. Folk WANT them to have been bad people as it makes a better story doesn't it. The authorities managed to staff other games correctly and cut corners in this one. That's the difference. The difference isn't fans being the same as always!!!

 

And the cover ups well well known. Did the dead fans do that too? You're embarrassing.

[Cade]

 

38 of these people were aged between 10 and 19. Were they pished up hooligans who forced entry into the stadium?

 

Malinga is having an absolute mare.

 

[Jambo in Yorkshire]

At previous games at the same and other venues, the police had an outer cordon around the environs of the stadium, where there was ticket checking to ensure those without tickets didn't get anywhere near the turnstiles. The match commander on the day decided it wasn't necessary. One of several fatal errors made in the planning stage.

I was at the game and the same semi final the previous year, tickets were checked in 88 but not 89.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Jambo in Yorkshire

[Boab]

The people still implying Liverpool fans were responsible

 

It wouldn't have mattered if the late comers all had tickets or were sober. We all know surely a lot of fans turn up late. Happens every week at Tynecastle. The overcrowding and channelling.of fans to the central pen was the major immediate cause of asphyxiation which as you may have seen was cause of death of 90 of the deceased.

 

Leeds fans in 1987 and Liverpool in 1988 suffered similar overcrowding.

 

Also Spurs v Wolves in 1981 where serious crushing in the same end caused injuries, including broken legs etc.

 

Serious neglect by many people going back years.

[269miles]

I think I am correct in saying that all of those organisations have accepted some degree of civil liability and contributed jointly to the compensation fund for the victims families.

 

The level of compensation paid to date has been pretty low given the now accepted levels of culpability on the head of each organisation. Each of them have to be hammered for punitive damages.

 

Their is also now the question of corporate criminal responsibility per organisation as well as the question of individuals themselves being prosecuted for their part in events.

 

Duckenfield is the obvious candidate for prosecution and he is surely looking at a hefty prison sentence now, not only for his incompetence and dereliction of his duty but for lying about it and denying and obstructing justice for so many years. I imagine he is pretty much a broken man. He still has to be held to account for his criminality IMO. He's not the only one either.

All of this. 

 

This what happens when the police investigate the police and it is a national disgrace. It is inconceivable that any other person in a position  of authority could have got away with what Duckenfield did. But the police ensured he did and Thatcher didn't give a shit because it was "rioting football hooligans "all over again. All aided and abetted by the Sun jumping on the bandwagon (to see Kelvin Mackenzie on the ITV news tonight trying to escape his part in this is nauseating) . There still some tough times ahead for the families before justice is finally delivered - and I'm really pessimistic about the chances of that.

[deesidejambo]

I hope this does go to prosecution, but it wont be pretty, as defence lawyers will be there.

 

What I don't get is -

 

The problem was caused by crushing.

 

The crushing was caused by too many people.

 

There is a clear film of the large exit gate opened and many hundreds of fans pouring in.

 

Whether they were drunk or rowdy or whatever is irrelevant - the fact is large numbers of fans were let into into the ground without going through the ticket gates, and caused a crush.

 

Who opened that gate?

[Big Slim Stylee]

You do realise that you are not allowed to question the impeccable behaviour of the Liverpool fans that day. I hope you aren't suggesting that the jury were swayed by an emotional campaign being forced down their throats over 20 odd years, and that the determination of fans without tickets to force their way into a football ground in any way shape or form led to people, with tickets being crushed, because that simply is not allowed.

 

Do I feel sorry for the parents of the deceased. Of course, who wouldn't. Well, the parents got the 'justice' they wanted, but then again, they would never have accepted any justice that didn't absolve completely their own support as minds have been firmly entrenched over time.

 

Were the police to blame? Yep, of course they were partly responsible. Was stewarding and stadium design responsible? Probably yes. Should they have admitted responsibility earlier? Yes, of course they should.

 

Should the Liverpool fans acknowledge their own failings? Well that will never happen.

 

Finally, can we please lay this whole thing to bed now this is over or will we have to listen to the professional scousers going on and on about this for a few years yet. They have after all, managed to conveniently forget Heysel.

 

You are by some distance one of the most ignorant, offensive posters I have ever come across on here.  

 

You have a habit of braying your spite-filled prose across this site, inventing "facts" ad nauseam, often in the face of actual proven evidence.

 

 Unfortunately people like you are the online cross the of majority of us have to bear.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I hope this does go to prosecution, but it wont be pretty, as defence lawyers will be there.

 

What I don't get is -

 

The problem was caused by crushing.

 

The crushing was caused by too many people.

 

There is a clear film of the large exit gate opened and many hundreds of fans pouring in.

 

Whether they were drunk or rowdy or whatever is irrelevant - the fact is large numbers of fans were let into into the ground without going through the ticket gates, and caused a crush.

 

Who opened that gate?

Who opened the gate? Duckenfield ordered it to be opened. That's been known for years.

[Diego10]

Anyone who is curious about this should go away, read David Conn's magnificent piece of journalism on it and if they're still questioning the Liverpool fans after that then they can only have an agenda.

[Boab]

Who opened the gate? Duckenfield ordered it to be opened. That's been known for years.

 

Indeed.

 

I think people should really take some time to red up on this....I don't mean to be rude but there is plenty books etc to get the information required.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

The thing is as well, it could have been us, it could have been any team. I remember as a kid being herded around by police on horseback. I also remember being winded on a crush barrier when Allan Preston scored at Parkhead in the 93 semi. We're all fans at the end of the day. The one-upmanship in blaming Liverpool fans because you think the behaviour wad typical of s ousers is beyond reprehensible.

[deesidejambo]

Who opened the gate? Duckenfield ordered it to be opened. That's been known for years.

If thats the case, then he better get a good Lawyer.     It beggars belief that a Police commander, who's job is to control issues like this, orders the gate to be opened.  What on earth did he think he was doing?

[deesidejambo]

Indeed.

 

I think people should really take some time to red up on this....I don't mean to be rude but there is plenty books etc to get the information required.

I think you mean me here.  Apologies that I have not bought the books.    I wonder how come the inquest took 2 years if the obvious root cause is known and presumably agreed by all.

[TurboT]

I must admit, I was only 13 at the time this occurred and my first thought was English Hooligans at it again as barely a week went by in the 80s without some hooliganism being on the tv.

 

I can therefore understand why it was so easy to originally pin all the blame onto the Liverpool fans as they were an easy target.

 

When you look at the list of failings, you can see that this an accident waiting to happen at a ground somewhere in the country and unfortunately 96 people paid the ultimate price.

 

Hopefully the families can now move on. Nobody should ever go to a football match and not come home.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TurboT]

The thing is as well, it could have been us, it could have been any team. I remember as a kid being herded around by police on horseback. I also remember being winded on a crush barrier when Allan Preston scored at Parkhead in the 93 semi. We're all fans at the end of the day. The one-upmanship in blaming Liverpool fans because you think the behaviour wad typical of s ousers is beyond reprehensible.

I was talking to my mate about this game today. I remember being able to lift my legs up and not falling down as I was wedged in and when Preston scored I ended up about 10 yards forward.

I always remember there was an empty section right next to us but only the Band were in it and we were squashed into a small section.

[luckydug]

That Guardian article by David Conn is a very powerful piece of Journalism. I felt a mixture of emotions while reading.

It brought home the scale of deceit by SY Police. The treatment these poor relatives received was scandalous. I hope those Policemen who were a part of this conspiracy are haunted by this for the rest of their lives. 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

I was talking to my mate about this game today. I remember being able to lift my legs up and not falling down as I was wedged in and when Preston scored I ended up about 10 yards forward.

I always remember there was an empty section right next to us but only the Band were in it and we were squashed into a small section.

Looking back that situation was scary but at the time it didn't feel so. We were conditioned to being treated like that. It's a key point I feel in questioning the behaviour of the Liverpool fans. I think it's a legitimate question to ask why the fans kept pushing, why they didn't move back. Even in the most traumatic circumstances people can behave civility - for example, their was no crush in the stairwell of the WTC on 9/11. But that's just how football was in those days, to expect people to act contrary is absurd. I know a guy who traveled with England to the 1990 World Cup. He talks of being treated literally like farm animals - of being shepherded between temporary fencing, funneled into holding pens, being surrounded by, manhandled, verbally abused, and even spat on by huge numbers of police with batons. Shamefully, it's just the way it was.

[luckydug]

The thing is as well, it could have been us, it could have been any team. I remember as a kid being herded around by police on horseback. I also remember being winded on a crush barrier when Allan Preston scored at Parkhead in the 93 semi. We're all fans at the end of the day. The one-upmanship in blaming Liverpool fans because you think the behaviour wad typical of s ousers is beyond reprehensible.

 

There is a video on You Tube from a Scottish Cup tie v Celtic at Tynecastle in 1966.(sorry unable to link)

I was at that match with my mate and his two little cousins who were just kids. We were stood behind the Gorgie Road goal, just down from one of the two big exit/entry tunnels. Somehow one of the tunnels gates got opened and the crowd surged in and all the folk at the front were allowed to go onto the track and the pitch. The game was stopped for a short period until people were relocated to other parts of the ground.

The point I am making is it could have been us the difference being there were no big wire fences hemming us in unlike Hillsborough.

[i wish jj was my dad]

David Conn's article moved me to tears tonight.

 

I have vivid memories of being absolutely terrified as a wee laddie at Parkhead in the mid 80s when we were packed into that wee enclosure in the corner and equally unpleasant memories of being treated like a criminal by Glasgow polis in the process. It didn't matter that I hadn't reached puberty it was systematic of what was allowed at that time.  The treatment of football fans at that time was an absolute national disgrace. Duckenfield's admission that he was primarily concerned with fans behaviour rather than public safety sums it up for me.  The establishment absolutely hated football fans and allowed free rein for people who would have been at home in 1930/40s Germany to abuse them and ultimately cause the deaths of 96 innocent people, including kids. It makes it even worse that the establishment colluded in the cover up as some sort of payback for the 'loyalty' shown by SYP during the miners strike.

 

Nothing will bring these poor people back to their loved ones but I hope today will bring some kind of comfort to those families and I hope tomorrow the process begins to bring Duckenfield and his cohorts to justice.  I also hope that part of that justice includes the likes of Kelvin Mckenzie losing every penny and asset he has to put something towards the costs of this process which was necessary to clear the good names of the victims of SYP.

[dav1e]

That Guardian article by David Conn is a very powerful piece of Journalism. I felt a mixture of emotions while reading.

It brought home the scale of deceit by SY Police. The treatment these poor relatives received was scandalous. I hope those Policemen who were a part of this conspiracy are haunted by this for the rest of their lives.

 

The force in Yorkshire thought they were untouchable, good article. No need for the comments Malinga.

[SM Sheffield]

'Not everyone agrees' you say... That's perfectly normal. But with respect 'some' folk disagreeing doesn't hold enough swing for me to discard what this massive investigation has found. 'Some' people disagreeing isn't enough to make your opinion right. However I do respect we are all entitled to one.

I wouldn't expect you to think anything different given the public outcome of the case. My personal opinion in the grand scheme of things is unimportant, the courts have decided, and I can assure you and anyone else that I do not have any agenda or dislike for Liverpool Football Club or their fans. Obviously I cannot speak for others on here. I have every sympathy with the family members of the victims and it is very sad that people have come to my city and died in tragic circumstances when they shouldn't have.

 

I know people that work/worked at the club, and people who were working on the turnstyles that day that have given evidence. As I've already said, I'm not surprised at the outcome but don't agree with everything. The case needs closing, action needs to be taken against certain people and organisations, and hopefully then the poor families will be able to move on. I've said my bit and I'm not going to say any more.

[John Findlay]

If thats the case, then he better get a good Lawyer. It beggars belief that a Police commander, who's job is to control issues like this, orders the gate to be opened. What on earth did he think he was doing?

He was out his depth. He had never been the I/C of a football match before. Never mind one as important as a FA Cup semi final. He forgot to apply the 6 P's. Prior Planning Prevents P1SS Poor Performance. He and a lot of his fellow officers performance that day was P1SS poor.

Edited April 26, 2016 by John Findlay

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

If thats the case, then he better get a good Lawyer. It beggars belief that a Police commander, who's job is to control issues like this, orders the gate to be opened. What on earth did he think he was doing?

I'm not being clever but you sound like you've stumbled across this story for the first time today? Have a read of David Conn's piece - it's all there.

[deesidejambo]

I'm not being clever but you sound like you've stumbled across this story for the first time today? Have a read of David Conn's piece - it's all there.

Sort of.      I prefer to do my own research and I am guilty of not knowing much on this issue, which is why I ask.

 

The direct cause was the opening of the gate.  For that Duckenfield is accountable.  Thats commonly agreed.

 

He claims he opened the gate because he thought there was going to be a disaster outside due to crushing, but in reality he made things worse, which could have been predictable.    

 

He was not competent to do the job he was accountable for, which is the root cause.   Simple.  How it took two years to establish that I don't get.

 

As for the subsequent cover ups etc.  That is a different issue, and absolutely inexcusable.   Heads should roll for that.

[Brandt]

The thing is as well, it could have been us, it could have been any team. I remember as a kid being herded around by police on horseback. I also remember being winded on a crush barrier when Allan Preston scored at Parkhead in the 93 semi. We're all fans at the end of the day. The one-upmanship in blaming Liverpool fans because you think the behaviour wad typical of s ousers is beyond reprehensible.

Just unlocked a memory there for me. It was absolutely chaos when Preston scored. A guy next to me collapsed. I think because of the lunge on to the barrier. I dont think ive been in a crush like that before. It was absolutely rammed in the Hearts end. Edited April 26, 2016 by Brandt

[stranraer-jambo]

Also Spurs v Wolves in 1981 where serious crushing in the same end caused injuries, including broken legs etc.

 

Serious neglect by many people going back years.

 

How the English FA did not learn lessons from this is staggering, incompetent and negligent. The Police in '81 allowed the Spurs fans to cross the fence and sit trackside while the Police in '89 kept forcing the fans back into the terraces - this experience of '81 should have been made known to the Authorities in '89 at the very least.

 

96 innocent people could still be alive and so many families not been torn apart.

 

Report and video links below.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2643060/Hillsborough-inquest-jury-shown-video-crush-Leppings-Lane-terrace-injured-38-fans-eight-years-fatal-1989-disaster.html

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0

[Салатные палочки]

He was out his depth. He had never been the I/C of a football match before. Never mind one as important as a FA Cup semi final. He forgot to apply the 6 P's. Prior Planning Prevents P1SS Poor Performance. He and a lot of his fellow officers performance that day was P1SS poor.

One of the pre-match meetings he called Forest "Nottingham City". He didn't have a clue about football, never mind being in charge of policing one and those he was in charge of knew that. But like the David Conn piece said, many of them were scared to speak out against him.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The thing is as well, it could have been us, it could have been any team. I remember as a kid being herded around by police on horseback. I also remember being winded on a crush barrier when Allan Preston scored at Parkhead in the 93 semi. We're all fans at the end of the day. The one-upmanship in blaming Liverpool fans because you think the behaviour wad typical of s ousers is beyond reprehensible.

 

Right, then imagine if after heroic efforts of some Jambos to help those who were injured and dying, Jambos as a whole were blamed for being drunk and disorderly.

 

And then imagine the SFA let us take the blame.

 

And then imagine if the national media called us "beasts" and "animals" and denounced us for their deaths.

 

And then imagine if Hibs spent 20 years singing songs taunting us for their deaths.

 

I can't imagine why this verdict would be important to the families...

 

Snark aside, this is a powerful bit from the Guardian article about an off-duty police officer who was in the terraces that day and tried to save the life of one of the girls who died:

 

 

At the end of his evidence, Greaves asked if he could say a few words. A big man with a moustache, overcome with emotion, he then read something he had prepared, to a rapt courtroom. ?Just mere words cannot comfort Trevor or Jenni Hicks, or remove their sense of loss, pain and utter devastation,? he said. ?But I would like to take this opportunity to say to them that I did my very best for Sarah in the circumstances. I could not have done more. For the time I was with Sarah, Sarah was with someone who cared. Sarah was not alone.?

[Zen Jambo]

I'm not sure that's Malinga's point though, at least I hope it's not.

 

He/she is coming in for a bit of stick on this thread and I'm not sure it's entirely warranted.

 

It's absolutely right that an individual or a group of individuals should examine their own behaviour or any actions which may have contributed to a particular outcome or situation.

 

His beef is surely with the fact that one can't ask questions without fear of being branded a 'hideous individual' - or some other charge that he's had levelled at him on this thread - and not an actual insinuation that this whole shooting match was the Liverpool fans' fault in any appreciable way.

 

Anyway, I'm glad that the families and friends have some kind of closure, and that the lies, slander, and ineptitude displayed by the South Yorkshire rozzers and sections of the British establishment and media have been exposed for what they are. A bloody scandal.

 

I'm calling sh!te on that.

 

He/She asks if Liverpool fans will accept their portion of the blame - Taken form the BBC website 7. Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

Jury's answer: No

There is NO blame to accept, yet the posters suggestion to contrary is idiotic, disrespectful and just simply messed up. 

Following this there is an irrelevant reference to Heysel! A nonchalant flippant remark that Liverpool fans have "forgotten" about the event of that day as if they are some how linked. 

It is not asking questions that are acceptable, the poster is simply and foolishly making ill advised comments around a subject they are clearly out of their depth on.

What ever the driver is for these comments they should not be posted such pish.  

[Jamboelite]

There is no winners in all of this it's a disaster that could and should have been avoided but for me its the after events that disgust me, it was a cover up on a grand scale and the Sun editor was shameful.

[gashauskis9]

David Conn's article moved me to tears tonight.

 

I have vivid memories of being absolutely terrified as a wee laddie at Parkhead in the mid 80s when we were packed into that wee enclosure in the corner and equally unpleasant memories of being treated like a criminal by Glasgow polis in the process. It didn't matter that I hadn't reached puberty it was systematic of what was allowed at that time. The treatment of football fans at that time was an absolute national disgrace. Duckenfield's admission that he was primarily concerned with fans behaviour rather than public safety sums it up for me. The establishment absolutely hated football fans and allowed free rein for people who would have been at home in 1930/40s Germany to abuse them and ultimately cause the deaths of 96 innocent people, including kids. It makes it even worse that the establishment colluded in the cover up as some sort of payback for the 'loyalty' shown by SYP during the miners strike.

 

Nothing will bring these poor people back to their loved ones but I hope today will bring some kind of comfort to those families and I hope tomorrow the process begins to bring Duckenfield and his cohorts to justice. I also hope that part of that justice includes the likes of Kelvin Mckenzie losing every penny and asset he has to put something towards the costs of this process which was necessary to clear the good names of the victims of SYP.

[deesidejambo]

There is no winners in all of this it's a disaster that could and should have been avoided but for me its the after events that disgust me, it was a cover up on a grand scale and the Sun editor was shameful.

Same here.  Nobody woke up that morning intending to kill anyone. It was a monumental screw-up and it looks like the Police couldnt cope and made a massive error of competence.    I'm sure they wish they could turn back the clock.

 

But the cover-up?  No sympathy whatsoever.     Those covering this up did that deliberately.

[Mollo]

I wouldn't expect you to think anything different given the public outcome of the case. My personal opinion in the grand scheme of things is unimportant, the courts have decided, and I can assure you and anyone else that I do not have any agenda or dislike for Liverpool Football Club or their fans. Obviously I cannot speak for others on here. I have every sympathy with the family members of the victims and it is very sad that people have come to my city and died in tragic circumstances when they shouldn't have.

 

I know people that work/worked at the club, and people who were working on the turnstyles that day that have given evidence. As I've already said, I'm not surprised at the outcome but don't agree with everything. The case needs closing, action needs to be taken against certain people and organisations, and hopefully then the poor families will be able to move on. I've said my bit and I'm not going to say any more.

On your original post you question the fans and end with a request it's all now dropped. And on this one you again have your say and make a statement referring to that being the end of it. Maybe it just seems you lob 'last word' grenades in and then leg it, but I appreciate that may be just how I read it. I'm not looking for an argument and you make some good points, but it reads like you expect all of us other blind idiots to be fooled unlike you who knows better. Again maybe it reads differently to the reader than the writer. I'm still not convinced the fans acted any differently to fans of the time, the authorities in this match DID. For the sake of the respect in not having good fans as im sure we both are, arguing over it, I'll agree it's best left. Apologies, genuinely, if any of my posts are a bit prickly. Like a lot of folk it's something that sits close to me. At the time it occurred I recall how much it affected me as a young fan. It's the first real news story that filled me with horror at a time when I could really grasp the detail of the reports. Football is the game of the working man / classes and the government at the time used Hillsborough cover up as a way to fling shite at the working classes. It's always disgusted me.