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#3701 Geoff Kilpatrick

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 12:27 PM

Thanks to both.

Qatar it is then.
Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?
That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

Deary me.



#3702 JamboX2

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 12:56 PM

At one level you have to admire the skill of these Russian forces, especially from the air. In the chaos of East Aleppo they are able to pinpoint civilian targets, with a special emphasis it seems on children's hospitals, and in relation to combatants, distinguish between ISIS targets and others.


Yes. It's called indiscriminate bombing. Using cluster and barrell bombs generally have the effect of pummelling a wider area than just the target.

#3703 JamboX2

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 12:58 PM

Thanks to both.

Qatar it is then.
Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?
That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?


Unlike in Russia. Or anywhere else for that.

#3704 King Of The Cat Cafe

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:09 PM

I see that that the American folk singer Tom Paxton - he is in Edinburgh later this month - is hoping for a quick "Prexit".

#3705 Smithee

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:15 PM

I see that that the American folk singer Tom Paxton - he is in Edinburgh later this month - is hoping for a quick "Prexit".


What did you learn in school today dear little boy of mine?

#3706 Francis Albert

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:33 PM

Yes. It's called indiscriminate bombing. Using cluster and barrell bombs generally have the effect of pummelling a wider area than just the target.

So they are not targeting civilians or avoiding ISIS targets, they are just bombing enemy-held areas indiscriminately. A bit like "shock and awe" in Iraq. Or indeed like in practice almost all aerial bombing efforts despite the pretence that you can just hit "the target" and the fancy and selective images of "pinpoint" bombing we put out when we are doing it.

#3707 JamboX2

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:40 PM

So they are not targeting civilians or avoiding ISIS targets, they are just bombing enemy-held areas indiscriminately. A bit like "shock and awe" in Iraq. Or indeed like in practice almost all aerial bombing efforts despite the pretence that you can just hit "the target" and the fancy and selective images of "pinpoint" bombing we put out when we are doing it.


Why are you arguing moral absolutes? I'm not saying Russia - Bad / America & West - Good.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

We do it. It's bad. They do it. It's bad. I'm opposed to the Iraq war. The Afghan debacle and the a large proportion of the mess which is UK foreign policy in the middle east. I thought we might turn the corner when Cameron said you don't impose democracy on a people from 10,000ft. But we are still trying a failing to do so.

Libya in itself wasn't a bad action. The lack of any after planning to assist and stabilise the place was. The lack of getting UN involvement (through either the UNSC or the GA) to help in the aftermath and to establish a functioning state is a stain. As is the foolhardy and naive approach to the Arab Spring. As Ulysses said earlier, if there is no history or no democratic or civic structures in place to facilitate this change - because all you've known os strong man governments - then no wonder these uprisings and awakenings of democratic protest fell apart.

I'd recommend Adam Curtis's documentary Hypernormalisation. It's on the iplayer and covers a lot of this.

#3708 JamboX2

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:43 PM

So they are not targeting civilians or avoiding ISIS targets, they are just bombing enemy-held areas indiscriminately. A bit like "shock and awe" in Iraq. Or indeed like in practice almost all aerial bombing efforts despite the pretence that you can just hit "the target" and the fancy and selective images of "pinpoint" bombing we put out when we are doing it.


Human Rights Watch. An independent NGOs view of Aleppo bombing: https://www.hrw.org/...-bombing-aleppo

#3709 Brian Dundas

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 02:05 PM

Thanks to both.

Qatar it is then.
Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?
That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

If you look back im the thread you will see their backers and influences were already posted.

#3710 Ugly American

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 04:56 PM

Thanks to both.

Qatar it is then.
Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?
That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

 

Elvoys can probably get into the various rivalries better than I can, but Al Jazeera and its Qatari backers are very much rivals and political opponents to the Saudis in the region.  The Saudis have a far more traditionalist/reactionary stance, whereas the Qataris (and the rest of the Emirates) have a resolutely modernist vision of a new Arab world.



#3711 Ugly American

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 05:15 PM

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.

 

We still have four years left of this shite.



#3712 Notts1874

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 05:27 PM

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.

We still have four years left of this shite.


Did he not like the Christmas advert?

#3713 Barack

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 05:34 PM

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.

We still have four years left of this shite.


"All talk, talk, talk-no actions or results. Sad!"

He's 70 years old, and he's trolling folk like he's on JKB.

:lol:

#3714 coconut doug

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 05:43 PM

At one level you have to admire the skill of these Russian forces, especially from the air. In the chaos of East Aleppo they are able to pinpoint civilian targets, with a special emphasis it seems on children's hospitals, and in relation to combatants, distinguish between ISIS targets and others.

 

 

Yes. It's called indiscriminate bombing. Using cluster and barrell bombs generally have the effect of pummelling a wider area than just the target.

It's amazing this indiscriminate, pinpoint bombing of civilians and hospitals  has forced the U.N. proscribed terrorist group (Al Nusra) to leave East Aleppo. Surely this must be a form of collateral damage neither the Russians or Assad could have seen coming. Civilians are now moving back into East Aleppo, when do you think the Russians will start bombing them again, pinpointedly or otherwise? 



#3715 Ugly American

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 05:48 PM

Well, now, this is fun.  Putin paid to have Jill Stein, Carter Page, and Flynn flown to the Russia Today dinner, then had them seated at his table.

 

https://twitter.com/...073668914970624



#3716 coconut doug

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 06:33 PM

Straw Poll.

Who's the biggest warmonger of recent times?

1) Obama (He likes drones.)
2) Putin (He likes barrel bombs.)
3) Assad (Huge fan of chemical weapons.)

Who's the best at explicitly targeting the civilian population?

What evidence do you have to support your view that Assad is "a huge fan of chemical weapons"?



#3717 Barack

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 06:46 PM

What evidence do you have to support your view that Assad is "a huge fan of chemical weapons"?

"A joint inquiry by the United Nations and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) found that Syrian government forces were responsible for three chlorine gas attacks and that Islamic State militants had used mustard gas, according to reports seen by Reuters in August and October."

Reported by Reuters, amongst others.

That, and his regime happened to have large stockpiles of VX, Sarin, Mustard & Chlorine gas, dotted about the place.

Which, they agreed to start destroying once the United Nations took an interest.

A bit more than a hobby.

If the joint inquiry has reviewed, and changed its findings from the 12th of January this year, I'll happily stand corrected. It might not have been verified as of yet, officially.

Edited by Barack, 14 January 2017 - 06:48 PM.


#3718 The Real Maroonblood

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 07:02 PM

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.
 
We still have four years left of this shite.

I very much doubt he'll last that long.

#3719 Francis Albert

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 07:10 PM

Why are you arguing moral absolutes? I'm not saying Russia - Bad / America & West - Good.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
We do it. It's bad. They do it. It's bad. I'm opposed to the Iraq war. The Afghan debacle and the a large proportion of the mess which is UK foreign policy in the middle east. I thought we might turn the corner when Cameron said you don't impose democracy on a people from 10,000ft. But we are still trying a failing to do so.
Libya in itself wasn't a bad action. The lack of any after planning to assist and stabilise the place was. The lack of getting UN involvement (through either the UNSC or the GA) to help in the aftermath and to establish a functioning state is a stain. As is the foolhardy and naive approach to the Arab Spring. As Ulysses said earlier, if there is no history or no democratic or civic structures in place to facilitate this change - because all you've known os strong man governments - then no wonder these uprisings and awakenings of democratic protest fell apart.
I'd recommend Adam Curtis's documentary Hypernormalisation. It's on the iplayer and covers a lot of this.

I am not arguing moral absolutes nor saying two wrongs make a right. I am arguing that people who supported Blair and bush areally not in a position to demand that Putin be called a war criminal. And that the western media are not to be trusted in distinguishing between our and Russian actions.

Edited by Francis Albert, 14 January 2017 - 07:15 PM.


#3720 Ulysses

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:06 PM

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.

 

We still have four years left of this shite.

 

 

In fairness, and in the interests of balance........

 

 

 

 

9343_45b7_500.jpeg

 

 

:whistling:



#3721 JamboX2

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:12 PM

It's amazing this indiscriminate, pinpoint bombing of civilians and hospitals has forced the U.N. proscribed terrorist group (Al Nusra) to leave East Aleppo. Surely this must be a form of collateral damage neither the Russians or Assad could have seen coming. Civilians are now moving back into East Aleppo, when do you think the Russians will start bombing them again, pinpointedly or otherwise?


Ignoring my link to the Human Rights Watch and second post to FA then?

#3722 JamboX2

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:14 PM

I am not arguing moral absolutes nor saying two wrongs make a right. I am arguing that people who supported Blair and bush areally not in a position to demand that Putin be called a war criminal. And that the western media are not to be trusted in distinguishing between our and Russian actions.


I've called no one a war criminal.

#3723 Francis Albert

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:46 PM

I've called no one a war criminal.

I didn't say you had.

#3724 Francis Albert

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:23 PM

Ignoring my link to the Human Rights Watch and second post to FA then?

I do not find the Human rights watch thing the knock down argument you seem to think it is. Truth is supposedly the first victim of war. It is certainly an early victim. But to say human rights are a victim of war is simply trite. Of course they are. I assume this group has also called for Blair bush kissinger Netanyahu Isis leaders etc etc etc to be tried as war criminals. I hope they feel suitably worthy.

Edited by Francis Albert, 14 January 2017 - 10:25 PM.


#3725 alwaysthereinspirit

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 11:30 PM

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.
 
We still have four years left of this shite.

You better buy more straws then.

#3726 Ugly American

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:13 AM

I didn't say you had.

 

This had me really puzzled too -- who exactly backed Bush but is calling Putin a war criminal?  I can't think of a single party -- individual or corporate -- that this applies to.



#3727 JamboX2

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:27 AM

I didn't say you had.


Sorry. Might have been me misreading the post at the time. Merely think that the media - in general- will not come out and call someone a war criminal unless the evidence for that is stand out.

Do I think Putin is one? No. Why? Because I don't think he meets the legal threshold for it on what we know. Do western leaders? Equally, no.

What I would say is Russian forces have (as have western forces in some cases) most likely broke Geneva conventions through indiscriminate bombing and in Syria and Russia's case through the use of barrel bombs and cluster bombs which are banned under international law.

#3728 JamboX2

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:36 AM

I do not find the Human rights watch thing the knock down argument you seem to think it is. Truth is supposedly the first victim of war. It is certainly an early victim. But to say human rights are a victim of war is simply trite. Of course they are. I assume this group has also called for Blair bush kissinger Netanyahu Isis leaders etc etc etc to be tried as war criminals. I hope they feel suitably worthy.


I believe they did and do over a lot of issues. But we were talking about Syria and a particular aspect of that conflict.

You're attacking the organisation not the content of what they say. I'm not saying it's a knockout. But they are a widely respected NGO globally who have worked in many war zones across the globe since 1978. Their evidence based approach disputes some of the comments made here. I'm not either disputing the point you make on human rights being compromised by war. The article certainly doesn't. It's merely the name of the organisation.

Again, no one is being called anything in the article, so why the war criminal jibe?

Don't get your post - to me it seems you disagree with the content so are attacking the organisation on some morality level of west good, east bad idea. A sentiment which is fast coming across on this thread.

Good is, is good because I agree with X's view. Bad is this group because they don't agree with this. Which is a narrow view of things- imo of coure.

#3729 Arse 'Friends' Dyslexic?

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:22 AM

Less than a week to go - better get cracking.

 



#3730 Smithee

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 01:07 PM

This is all going to end in impeachment anyway, there are rules and Trump's not interested in playing by rules, they don't apply to him.
President Pence, that's who we need to worry about- an old school Christian who believes abortion should be criminalised and that gays should attend correction courses and shouldn't be protected by anti discriminatory laws

In 2002, the ACLU gave him a 7 percent rating on civil rights, and he's next in line!

#3731 jake

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:53 PM

Less than a week to go - better get cracking.



Donald Trump will start ww3 they say.
Donald trump should stop being so friendly with the russians they also say.

Quite funny that .
In 5 years time trump will have carried the baton from obama who took the baton from bush.

#3732 aussieh

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:56 PM

Donald Trump will start ww3 they say.
Donald trump should stop being so friendly with the russians they also say.

Quite funny that .
In 5 years time trump will have carried the baton from obama who took the baton from bush.

How, what happens in 5 years?

#3733 Maple Leaf

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:36 PM

Donald Trump will start ww3 they say.
Donald trump should stop being so friendly with the russians they also say.

Quite funny that .
In 5 years time trump will have carried the baton from obama who took the baton from bush.

I'm curious about the 5-year comment too.  He'll have to win another election to still be president in 2022.

 

I highly doubt he'll start a World War, but wouldn't be at all surprised if he gets into a shooting match with, say, North Korea, or maybe Iran. 



#3734 jake

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 04:17 PM

I'm curious about the 5-year comment too. He'll have to win another election to still be president in 2022.

I highly doubt he'll start a World War, but wouldn't be at all surprised if he gets into a shooting match with, say, North Korea, or maybe Iran.



If trump survives if not whoever is president.
If obama with all of his promises still presided over the conflicts America has been involved with including the recent troop movements in eastern europe cannot halt it.
It kind of tells you everything.

#3735 jake

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 04:58 PM

http://m.washingtontimes.com/

This was the alternative to trump.


Although looking at it cynically gives everyone what they want .

Edited by jake, 15 January 2017 - 05:10 PM.


#3736 coconut doug

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:03 PM

"A joint inquiry by the United Nations and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) found that Syrian government forces were responsible for three chlorine gas attacks and that Islamic State militants had used mustard gas, according to reports seen by Reuters in August and October."

Reported by Reuters, amongst others.

That, and his regime happened to have large stockpiles of VX, Sarin, Mustard & Chlorine gas, dotted about the place.

Which, they agreed to start destroying once the United Nations took an interest.

A bit more than a hobby.

If the joint inquiry has reviewed, and changed its findings from the 12th of January this year, I'll happily stand corrected. It might not have been verified as of yet, officially.

Seems you are well ITK. I didn't know of the report only produced by Reuters 2 days ago.  http://www.reuters.c...s-idUSKBN14X1XY

 

Assad is implicated for the first time.  I'm not convinced though. There is no opportunity to evaluate the quality of evidence and I cannot understand why Assad would do it. This is a war and I expect the lowest forms of human behaviour from the combatants but not behaviour that is clearly stupid and damaging to your side. Assad and the Russians know where the red lines are and would be stupid to cross them. I expect there are several elements in the war who would be willing to cross the red line for them.  



#3737 Jambo-Jimbo

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:39 PM

Seems you are well ITK. I didn't know of the report only produced by Reuters 2 days ago.  http://www.reuters.c...s-idUSKBN14X1XY

 

Assad is implicated for the first time.  I'm not convinced though. There is no opportunity to evaluate the quality of evidence and I cannot understand why Assad would do it. This is a war and I expect the lowest forms of human behaviour from the combatants but not behaviour that is clearly stupid and damaging to your side. Assad and the Russians know where the red lines are and would be stupid to cross them. I expect there are several elements in the war who would be willing to cross the red line for them.  

 

Saddam Hussein knew the red lines as well, still didn't stop him, he still gassed the Kurds.

The point I'm making is perhaps if Assad believes he's untouchable and would never face any justice then what is there to lose by using chemical weapons, if it achieved victory for your side.

Assad is pretty much untouchable, the only way he'd ever be brought to justice is if the Russians turned him over to the Hague and I can't see that happening.



#3738 Barack

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Posted Yesterday, 08:31

Seems you are well ITK. I didn't know of the report only produced by Reuters 2 days ago. http://www.reuters.c...s-idUSKBN14X1XY

Assad is implicated for the first time. I'm not convinced though. There is no opportunity to evaluate the quality of evidence and I cannot understand why Assad would do it. This is a war and I expect the lowest forms of human behaviour from the combatants but not behaviour that is clearly stupid and damaging to your side. Assad and the Russians know where the red lines are and would be stupid to cross them. I expect there are several elements in the war who would be willing to cross the red line for them.


No, Doug. I'm far from that.

I take an interest in American politics, but it's far from my comfort zone. There are posters on here, who excel at debating politics on both fronts, yourself included, that I wouldn't dream of getting into depth with.

I'm out of my comfort zone mainly where policy is concerned. Happy to chip in with my meagre attempts now & again though.

One point though you've said about red lines, and Russia would be stupid to cross now they're engaged with Assad, and using a chemical attack.

I agree they'd be daft, and given for example that the Goutta Chemical Weapons attack was in August 2013, and Russia's first military action with Assad, was October 2015 I think,(would have to check) then Russia's intervention imo, had a lot to do with that attack.

Even Putin is not that stupid in regards to chemical warfare, and given the destabilized nature at that time of Assad's regime, as they were really on their knees at that point, through ISIS and Free Syrian army & friends' attacks, a helping hand was needed urgently. Which isn't really a secret.

I would've thought a swift metaphorical boot in the nuts from Russia, to Assad, with respect to those attacks was administered.

"We know you did this. Everyone knows you did this. Cut it out, we'll help you out(in reality helping themselves with geo-political maneuverings) in getting rid of ISIS and sort your rebel problem out." Hence why Russia were screaming False Flag about it all, to deflect away from Assad. He can't take a piss without Putin's permission these days I'd imagine. As I doubt unless Russia is holding his hand, they don't trust him to go and do another idiotic thing, thus implicating Russia in another atrocity. Of which Russia has enough to deal with in recent times as it is.

As you say however, other elements may do things on the QT, that are "deniable." Many governments, including ours, do this of course. Not chemical attacks, but it happens.

I've rambled on enough, sorry.

#3739 maroonlegions

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Posted Yesterday, 11:47

So the American intelligence agencies  wants the world to believe that the Russians hacked the US elections.

 

Police say CIA head Brennan couldn't even keep his emails safe from a 16 year old child.   :laugh4: 

 

 

The 16-year-old boy was arrested in the East Midlands as part of an investigation in to the data breach of John Brennan’s emails last year.
TELEGRAPH.CO.UK
 
 
 

    If the CIA did irony eh..   :laugh4:



#3740 Ugly American

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Posted Yesterday, 19:58

Seems you are well ITK. I didn't know of the report only produced by Reuters 2 days ago.  http://www.reuters.c...s-idUSKBN14X1XY

 

Assad is implicated for the first time.  I'm not convinced though. There is no opportunity to evaluate the quality of evidence and I cannot understand why Assad would do it. This is a war and I expect the lowest forms of human behaviour from the combatants but not behaviour that is clearly stupid and damaging to your side. Assad and the Russians know where the red lines are and would be stupid to cross them. I expect there are several elements in the war who would be willing to cross the red line for them.  

 

Assad is an authoritarians, and authoritarians go to extreme means to stay in power.  Russia has been Assad's closest ally, effectively propping him up and running interference for him at the UN in exchange for him being a stalwart ally in the region, particularly in terms of oil.

 

I should write another interminably long post some time about how all of this shadow boxing in Syria, hacks of Clinton, Venezuela, Yemen, the TPP, the Koch Brothers, Dick Cheney, the new Secretary of State nominee, and several dozen other seemingly unconnected aspects of the last 16 years can all be fairly easily understood as being about the control of, price of, and the relative importance of oil.



#3741 elvoys

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Posted Yesterday, 23:45

FFS keep up. Jake is accusing all media outlets who are reporting on atrocities in Syria as being under the thumb of the US government and doing the CIA's bidding. Al Jazeera is reporting on them. Al Jazeera is not under the thumb of the CIA.

I'm not saying they're unbiased. I will say the reporting on that page is excellent and includes a variety of positions, in keeping with its Qatari funders' goal of having a modern, independent, non-Western focused media organization.

They are in no ways independent as any enquiry into their paymasters relationship with the 'rebels' is off limits. Its no coincidence that every freed western hostage has the freedom deal brokered via Doha. Whats more many of their journos have left them cos of this editorial limits and compromised integrity.

Edited by elvoys, Yesterday, 23:48.


#3742 JamboX2

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Posted Yesterday, 23:52

So the American intelligence agencies wants the world to believe that the Russians hacked the US elections.

Police say CIA head Brennan couldn't even keep his emails safe from a 16 year old child. :laugh4:



British teenager suspected of being a mystery hacker who stole CIA boss emails

The 16-year-old boy was arrested in the East Midlands as part of an investigation in to the data breach of John Brennan’s emails last year.



TELEGRAPH.CO.UK




If the CIA did irony eh.. :laugh4:

So the Russians couldn't hack the Democrats emails but a 16 year old lad hacks the CIA? At a loss here...

You'd have thought Watergate was a Democratic conspiracy at the time ML :laugh:

Edited by JamboX2, Yesterday, 23:53.


#3743 Ugly American

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Posted Today, 02:03

They are in no ways independent as any enquiry into their paymasters relationship with the 'rebels' is off limits. Its no coincidence that every freed western hostage has the freedom deal brokered via Doha. Whats more many of their journos have left them cos of this editorial limits and compromised integrity.

 

I merely meant independent of Western media organizations, which are hardly free of entangling ownerships themselves. (Why oh why would media networks owned by conglomerates that also owned GE and Westinghouse not cover the Dakota Access protests?)

 

Al Jazeera has a bias. BBC has a bias. The Daily Mail has a bias. WikiLeaks has a bias.