US Elections 2016

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

A sneaky snide remark as ever.

It isn't snide if it's accurate. Edited January 13, 2017 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[elvoys]

Yes, of course he is and only similarly limited people would read and quote him.

 

He did fantastic work on Timor, Cambodia and the treatment of Aborigines. Most of the world would have known nothing of this had it not been for Pilger the donut!

And Venezuela not so much (or enter any other Banana Republic Bampotership that is the flavour of the decade for this unreconstructed Stalinist)

[Space Mackerel]

It isn't snide if it's accurate.

Bang goes over 80% of your 10 million posts on here Geoffrey

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Bang goes over 80% of your 10 million posts on here Geoffrey

My 80% beats your 100%

[Space Mackerel]

My 80% beats your 100%

REPORTED!

 

For being bang on the cash

[Les Izemore]

Yes, of course he is and only similarly limited people would read and quote him.

 

He did fantastic work on Timor, Cambodia and the treatment of Aborigines. Most of the world would have known nothing of this had it not been for Pilger the donut!

I'm no fan-boy but Pilger is a LONG way from a 'donut'.

Of his times, perhaps, but a very good investigative journalist when on his game.

[jake]

And Venezuela not so much (or enter any other Banana Republic Bampotership that is the flavour of the decade for this unreconstructed Stalinist)

 

Dont know about the author.

But the article linked was a good take on the reality of political motive.

Would you not agree?

[Maple Leaf]

The "optics" are awful if you really want them to be awful.

I suppose, but that isn't the case with me.  I don't want them to be anything.

 

The USSR/Russia has been a bitter political adversary of the USA for 70 years.  If you've listened to any of the testimony in the Senate approval sessions this week, you'll gather that many of the nominees hold the view that Russia is still an implacable enemy of American interests.  These comments are from people nominated by Trump.

 

Yet all we've heard from Trump himself is happy cooing about what a fine chap Putin is. Then one of his staff calls the Russian ambassador at the same time as the US government is taking political action against the Russians, at the same time as there are accusations about Russian interference in the election.  Maybe the conversation was about the weather, or about the price of vodka, but the timing was dreadful.

 

Someone in the Trump camp needs to improve their judgement skills.  

[jake]

A controversial choice, Geoff.

 

I was wondering funnily enough, about Jake's Eva Bartlett expos? about Syria, that he kindly linked.

 

As I said to Jake, some interesting points. But I can't remember who raised the issue of her working for RT(we've established their origins) and that she was unusually reticent about speaking about Assad? I can't be bothered looking back, so anyone feel free to correct me.

 

However, for journalistic integrity & balance, I was wondering if she was working for RT at the time of the mysterious simultaneous explosion of 18- 20 aid vehicles, or the sudden strange case of small children and adults that had been rushed into hospital, with what looked suspiciously to medical professionals like the effects of sarin.

 

And if so, was she strident in her belief that Russia & Syria were behind these two highlighted atrocities? And how, if so, did she report it, if there's any footage of her reports online?

 

Just wondering as to where her allegiances as a journalist lie. If she has laid into both, then fair enough and good for her.

 

As I say, was just curious.

 

Also, funnily enough, (though not to the Syrians) I notice Assad has been officially linked to those attacks, by the United Nations and OPCW, and its joint enquiry it had set up.

 

Being reported now.

 

Fake news, folks. Very, very, very bad journalists.

 

She wrote a blog whilst reporting in Gaza for RT.

Her intergrity as a freelance journalist was never questioned.

Until she called into question the msm and its reporting of Syria.

Her only link to the Assad regime was their ambassador to the UN who asked for her to be allowed to speak to them.

This was granted.

 

Ive no doubt Assad has committed atrocities.

 

Likewise fake news .

But not bad journalism .

Ive asked before who it is you would believe.

Ive asked people to look at the narrative.

The same practices were carried out 100 years ago in Cuba against Spain.

Reported in the same way as now.

 

Im repeating myself.

Just cannot understand why even teference to recent history does not make it apparent.

 

What i will say is you made me look up eva bartlett and there is a question mark over some of her reports accuracy.

[Francis Albert]

Straw Poll.

 

Who's the biggest warmonger of recent times?

 

1) Obama (He likes drones.)

2) Putin (He likes barrel bombs.)

3) Assad (Huge fan of chemical weapons.)

 

Who's the best at explicitly targeting the civilian population?

ISIS isn't the biggest, but they and other Jihadists are the biggest threats to us. Who is currently their most effective opponent?

1.Obama

2.Putin

3.Assad

[elvoys]

Dont know about the author.

But the article linked was a good take on the reality of political motive.

Would you not agree?

 

He may have some things to say in this or in another article, but I don't have time for his revelations anymore after his show of naked yet all too predictable moral relativism during the time of the aid workers executions a couple years back. His and Chomsky's boat sailed long ago as far as I'm concerned. 

[Ulysses]

Meanwhile, back on topic.....

 

 

....with a week to go to his taking office, Donald Trump has the lowest approval rating of a President-elect yet recorded.

 

 

The reports are based on polls carried out by Gallup and Quinnipiac University.

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-donald-trump-approval-still-low-as-inauguration-looms/

 

http://www.politico.com/blogs/donald-trump-administration/2017/01/poll-trumps-transition-is-historically-unpopular-233583

 

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/13/14250944/donald-trump-unpopular

 

 

These ratings are neither here nor there if things go well for Trump's Administration, but if they go badly he and the GOP will be in some bother.

[Ulysses]

2. The winner.

 

 

If people are relying on Russia, & Putin in particular, as some kind of saving grace in the combat against Islamic extremism, then they'll have to wait a while. At least until his dictator friend is safe from international prosecution.

 

 

"The winner" is the right way to describe Putin in all this, and he'll be around the scene for a while yet.  I wouldn't want to rely on his take on the rule of law, and Russia will concern itself with keeping Islamic extremists away from Russian territory rather than trying to put them out of action.

[JamboX2]

A controversial choice, Geoff.

 

I was wondering funnily enough, about Jake's Eva Bartlett expos? about Syria, that he kindly linked.

 

As I said to Jake, some interesting points. But I can't remember who raised the issue of her working for RT(we've established their origins) and that she was unusually reticent about speaking about Assad? I can't be bothered looking back, so anyone feel free to correct me.

 

However, for journalistic integrity & balance, I was wondering if she was working for RT at the time of the mysterious simultaneous explosion of 18- 20 aid vehicles, or the sudden strange case of small children and adults that had been rushed into hospital, with what looked suspiciously to medical professionals like the effects of sarin.

 

And if so, was she strident in her belief that Russia & Syria were behind these two highlighted atrocities? And how, if so, did she report it, if there's any footage of her reports online?

 

Just wondering as to where her allegiances as a journalist lie. If she has laid into both, then fair enough and good for her.

 

As I say, was just curious.

 

Also, funnily enough, (though not to the Syrians) I notice Assad has been officially linked to those attacks, by the United Nations and OPCW, and its joint enquiry it had set up.

 

Being reported now.

 

Fake news, folks. Very, very, very bad journalists.

http://www.cjr.org/feature/what_is_russia_today.php

 

Decent article on the RT editorial line and how journalists within RT were handled during the Georgian crisis.

[Space Mackerel]

"The winner" is the right way to describe Putin in all this, and he'll be around the scene for a while yet.  I wouldn't want to rely on his take on the rule of law, and Russia will concern itself with keeping Islamic extremists away from Russian territory rather than trying to put them out of action.

Is it really all about Islamic extremism or more to do with geo political manovering and controlling areas of land and resources?

[JamboX2]

1. Gone

2. The winner.

3. Still in power because of 2.

 

Russia can afford to be the most effective opponent, as you put it. By virtue of it can attack anyone, anywhere, with impunity. (In their minds.)

 

All the while, mocking any attempts by every goverment to lay sanctions for atrocities against people(not just Syria) that are incontrovertible to those with the right intelligence on such matters. But are too scared of Putin to act.

 

Let's see what Trump's team do about Russia (& Syria, as an afterthought)after the pre-election rhetoric.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, and say Putin had a sense of outrage at ISIS and others suddenly, as they spread across the Middle-East. We all know the political reasons for them being in Syria, they've been covered ad nauseam.

 

If people are relying on Russia, & Putin in particular, as some kind of saving grace in the combat against Islamic extremism, then they'll have to wait a while. At least until his dictator friend is safe from international prosecution.

Putin seems to have chosen a period when America was paralysed due to the end of a second term president not being able to be so bold against him. Russian action in Syria escalated during the campaign when Obama started becoming a "lame duck President". Good tactic.

 

I'd imagine over the next year Russia will scale down. Hence the peace push.

[Ulysses]

Is it really all about Islamic extremism or more to do with geo political manovering and controlling areas of land and resources?

 

 

Control of resources and geopolitical jockeying for position is always a key concern for the great powers.  However, Russia is also quite concerned about the potential impact of Islamic extremism within its own territories.  It's hard to judge when you don't have direct insights into the thinking of the Russian leadership, but I suspect that internal cohesion would be their number one priority.

[Space Mackerel]

Control of resources and geopolitical jockeying for position is always a key concern for the great powers. However, Russia is also quite concerned about the potential impact of Islamic extremism within its own territories. It's hard to judge when you don't have direct insights into the thinking of the Russian leadership, but I suspect that internal cohesion would be their number one priority.

I agree, empires, modern and through the years have always been about conquering, much like the US has done in the last 60 years or so. It's their time now.

However, they always need a "bogeyman" to justify these actions, it was the Cold War before, Cuba, Vietnam, etc now it's this threat from Islamic extremists. It keeps the economy ticking over. And they are clever, they always play both sides.

[elvoys]

I agree, empires, modern and through the years have always been about conquering, much like the US has done in the last 60 years or so. It's their time now.

However, they always need a "bogeyman" to justify these actions, it was the Cold War before, Cuba, Vietnam, etc now it's this threat from Islamic extremists. It keeps the economy ticking over. And they are clever, they always play both sides.

Cuba certainly was a 'bogeyman' at one point and not just the cruel timewarp it is now. Good old Che 'the butcher of la Cabana' would have had Mother Russia turn the States to charcoal if he'd had his way.

[Francis Albert]

1. Gone

2. The winner.

3. Still in power because of 2.

 

Russia can afford to be the most effective opponent, as you put it. By virtue of it can attack anyone, anywhere, with impunity. (In their minds.)

 

All the while, mocking any attempts by every goverment to lay sanctions for atrocities against people(not just Syria) that are incontrovertible to those with the right intelligence on such matters. But are too scared of Putin to act.

 

Let's see what Trump's team do about Russia (& Syria, as an afterthought)after the pre-election rhetoric.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, and say Putin had a sense of outrage at ISIS and others suddenly, as they spread across the Middle-East. We all know the political reasons for them being in Syria, they've been covered ad nauseam.

 

If people are relying on Russia, & Putin in particular, as some kind of saving grace in the combat against Islamic extremism, then they'll have to wait a while. At least until his dictator friend is safe from international prosecution.

I think Putin and Russia have a common interest with the West in defeating Islamic extremism. I don't think they can selectively defeat it only in relation to its threat to Russia. And I don't think the

West can defeat it selectively only in relation to its threat to the West.

[Francis Albert]

Putin seems to have chosen a period when America was paralysed due to the end of a second term president not being able to be so bold against him. Russian action in Syria escalated during the campaign when Obama started becoming a "lame duck President". Good tactic.

 

I'd imagine over the next year Russia will scale down. Hence the peace push.

The lame duck President seems to have got a lot more aggressive towards Russia since he became a lame duck!

[elvoys]

"The winner" is the right way to describe Putin in all this, and he'll be around the scene for a while yet. I wouldn't want to rely on his take on the rule of law, and Russia will concern itself with keeping Islamic extremists away from Russian territory rather than trying to put them out of action.

You might want to look up Chechnya on the map. His enemy turned fave warlord Ramzan Kadyrov is the only thing keeping that tiger at bay. They are the absolute worst of the worst in IS and Putin is playing a v dangerous game in regards to the home front.

[Space Mackerel]

Cuba certainly was a 'bogeyman' at one point and not just the cruel timewarp it is now. Good old Che 'the butcher of la Cabana' would have had Mother Russia turn the States to charcoal if he'd had his way.

Jesus double H Christ

[JamboX2]

The lame duck President seems to have got a lot more aggressive towards Russia since he became a lame duck!

Really? His rhetoric has always been frosty with Russia once the "great reset" didn't work.

 

I think the US sanctions imposed with increasing regularity since the destabilisation of Ukraine has been consistent.

 

Then again, the Obama team wanted a deal over Iran's nuclear activity. That trumped many other concerns. They got that through dialogue with Russia. Another great achievement in doubt and with it Israeli attitudes are again hardening in the knowledge that Trump will let them off the hook it's worrying to see perhaps a new arms race and proxy war between US/Israel and Russia/Iran there.

[JamboX2]

I think Putin and Russia have a common interest with the West in defeating Islamic extremism. I don't think they can selectively defeat it only in relation to its threat to Russia. And I don't think the

West can defeat it selectively only in relation to its threat to the West.

You are probably right. However, Russia is scarred (and former KGB Putin is more than most to be aware of this) by the mujahadeen who fought them in Afghanistan in the 1980s. They know who backed them willingly. There'll no doubt be a bit of Putin wanting to find a way of targeting IS covertly to focus them on the west rather than him. Afterall, some reports suggest Russian bombing targets do not include ISIS.

 

//www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0SF24L20151021?client=ms-android-tmobile-gb[/url]

Edited January 14, 2017 by JamboX2

[niblick1874]

You do realise based on his appointments to the White House Staff and his Cabinet that he is adding to not draining the swamp?

 

You do realise that globalisation is a further move forward in hunan progress as trade, economics, social and digital media all bring the world ever closer and erode the barriers between nations?

 

Why do you not care that he's a misogynist? Why do you not care about the message appointing guys like Bannon sends? That with gun crime soaring his proposals here seem outdated and backwards? That his views on abortion are terrifying? That his statements are contradictory and make no sense? That his approach to climate change may undermine the Paris Agreement and set us on a course to ecological catastrophe?

 

Yes he won the election. Yes he will be President. But that does not mean I or anyone else has to sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

 

Jesus... right. So you acknowledge that the US would (rightly) react if the Russians moved into Canada. So Russia moves troops to the Poland's border and interferes in Ukraine. So NATO reacts by countering Russian actions.

 

Are NATO warmongers? Or Russia?

 

Merely applying your logic to the European situation.

Dear Mr I'm a good labour/globalist man.

 

You missed a trick there. You had the opportunity to big up one of your poster boys that has been tirelessly working behind the scenes with scant recognition from the MSM when it comes the places you mention.

 

An irrefutable source from the horses mouth no less. I give you George Soros. Surly you know all about this man being an avid globalist?

 

Will I post the WikiLeaks from George Soros to Clinton and others concerning Ukraine and the likes, or will I be steeling your thunder?

Edited January 14, 2017 by niblick1874

[Ulysses]

You might want to look up Chechnya on the map. His enemy turned fave warlord Ramzan Kadyrov is the only thing keeping that tiger at bay. They are the absolute worst of the worst in IS and Putin is playing a v dangerous game in regards to the home front.

 

 

Agreed. 

[maroonlegions]

Trump won. End of thread.

 

 

People still believing that we live in a fair, open and honest political democracy and that the elected actually give  a feck about you or Joe Blogs on the street.  

 

The masters are peshing themselves at that gullibility.

 

Easily fooled , ruled and manipulated, oh and so many bought  easily  when they dangle the right political or financial carrot in front of the masses.

 

Trump is now the embodiment of capitalism ,a present day capitalism that is now manifesting in  outright greed, self preservation, corruption and a cancer that eats away at social morality , fairness and any  human compassion for those struggling to keep their heads and their kids heads above the water.  

 

America is a oil company owned by the bankers , Murdoch has a media empire to manipulate that company and the bankers / Rothschilds have the financial might to fund the gate keepers of the corrupt status quo. 

 

Just look at who you are NOT allowed to criticise, who are exempt for any accountability and who are allowed to participate  in multi billion ?s /$ tax evasions in the UK  and who have financial interests  or links to such companies/organisations.

 

The ordinary hard working slave, sorry people , are up against a highly organised and powerful legalise mafia. who"s financial , military and media powers will do anything to uphold the illusion  and manipulated lie of freedom and fairness it sells the people.

 

 

Get these b******* testifying that they have never done any wrong or engaged in  corruption to those that voted them in.

 

Follow the money.

 

 

 

Rage Against The Machine - Testify;

 

 

 

 

 

[elvoys]

Jesus double H Christ

Once more, you hide your inability to play the ball behind childrens computer shapes.

 

Are you doubting that he urged Khrushchev to launch a first strike? Are you doubting he was chief executioner at La Cabana? The world as it actually is or happened must be a perpetual surprise for you.

[JamboX2]

Dear Mr I'm a good labour/globalist man.

 

You missed a trick there. You had the opportunity to big up one of your poster boys that has been tirelessly working behind the scenes with scant recognition from the MSM when it comes the places you mention.

 

An irrefutable source from the horses mouth no less. I give you George Soros. Surly you know all about this man being an avid globalist?

 

Will I post the WikiLeaks from George Soros to Clinton and others concerning Ukraine and the likes, or will I be steeling your thunder?

I'm in an internationalist. The world is now too small to see it's issues not solved at a global level. You can't defeat global corporations without international cooperation. You can't spread the wealth fairly than without global efforts to prevent tax havens. You can't stop the spread of disease or tackle inequality without global efforts now. You can't make your nation safer without cooperation now.

 

We need the structures and bodies in place to enable easy cooperation and quick decisions being made.

 

I don't see what is bad about.

 

Good old conspiracy theorist pray tell what you think of that? And what doth my apparent master, the great lizard Soros have to say on it all?

 

But before that, care to answer my questions to you on the evidence you have that Mr Trump is preparing to drain the swamp etc?

Edited January 14, 2017 by JamboX2

[Space Mackerel]

Once more, you hide your inability to play the ball behind childrens computer shapes.

Are you doubting that he urged Khrushchev to launch a first strike? Are you doubting he was chief executioner at La Cabana? The world as it actually is or happened must be a perpetual surprise for you.

Well I dunno, I wasn't born then so I guessing we are all leaving it up to you and your testimony as you saw his finger on the button

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Qatari based and funded Al Jazeera? Funded wholly by the Muslim Brotherhood, Fateh al Sham, Jaish al Islam sponsoring Al Thanis? No conflict of interest?

 

FFS keep up. Jake is accusing all media outlets who are reporting on atrocities in Syria as being under the thumb of the US government and doing the CIA's bidding.  Al Jazeera is reporting on them.  Al Jazeera is not under the thumb of the CIA.

 

I'm not saying they're unbiased.  I will say the reporting on that page is excellent and includes a variety of positions, in keeping with its Qatari funders' goal of having a modern, independent, non-Western focused media organization.

[Francis Albert]

You are probably right. However, Russia is scarred (and former KGB Putin is more than most to be aware of this) by the mujahadeen who fought them in Afghanistan in the 1980s. They know who backed them willingly. There'll no doubt be a bit of Putin wanting to find a way of targeting IS covertly to focus them on the west rather than him. Afterall, some reports suggest Russian bombing targets do not include ISIS.

 

//www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0SF24L20151021?client=ms-android-tmobile-gb[/url]

At one level you have to admire the skill of these Russian forces, especially from the air. In the chaos of East Aleppo they are able to pinpoint civilian targets, with a special emphasis it seems on children's hospitals, and in relation to combatants, distinguish between ISIS targets and others.

[jake]

FFS keep up. Jake is accusing all media outlets who are reporting on atrocities in Syria as being under the thumb of the US government and doing the CIA's bidding. Al Jazeera is reporting on them. Al Jazeera is not under the thumb of the CIA.

 

I'm not saying they're unbiased. I will say the reporting on that page is excellent and includes a variety of positions, in keeping with its Qatari funders' goal of having a modern, independent, non-Western focused media organization.

 

Forgive my ignorance but is al jazeera not back by saudi cash?

The same saudi cash which funded the clinton campaign with 20%.

The same Saudis whom Assad criticized along with the arab spring.

No cia involvement there then.

The middle east and north africa is a theatre of war .

The main players are the Us / saudis russia and china.

It is not about anything other than control.

The chinese have went about it in a less aggressive way.

The russians are like the US and know only divide and rule and murder.

And if it had been a republican president of the last 8 years youd have agreed.

 

But we are to fawn over a guy because his style and party along with the colour of his skin makes you and others want to protect that.

Even going so far as to start quoting the cia.

 

Up is down and down is up.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Forgive my ignorance but is al jazeera not back by saudi cash?

The same saudi cash which funded the clinton campaign with 20%.

The same Saudis whom Assad criticized along with the arab spring.

No cia involvement there then.

The middle east and north africa is a theatre of war .

The main players are the Us / saudis russia and china.

It is not about anything other than control.

The chinese have went about it in a less aggressive way.

The russians are like the US and know only divide and rule and murder.

And if it had been a republican president of the last 8 years youd have agreed.

 

But we are to fawn over a guy because his style and party along with the colour of his skin makes you and others want to protect that.

Even going so far as to start quoting the cia.

 

Up is down and down is up.

No. Al Jazeera isn't Saudi.

[Unknown user]

Forgive my ignorance but is al jazeera not back by saudi cash?

The same saudi cash which funded the clinton campaign with 20%.

The same Saudis whom Assad criticized along with the arab spring.

No cia involvement there then.

The middle east and north africa is a theatre of war .

The main players are the Us / saudis russia and china.

It is not about anything other than control.

The chinese have went about it in a less aggressive way.

The russians are like the US and know only divide and rule and murder.

And if it had been a republican president of the last 8 years youd have agreed.

 

But we are to fawn over a guy because his style and party along with the colour of his skin makes you and others want to protect that.

Even going so far as to start quoting the cia.

 

Up is down and down is up.

Nope, all jazeera is very much qatari, but your ignorance is forgiven

[jake]

Thanks to both.

 

Qatar it is then.

Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?

That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

[Sraman]

Thanks to both.

 

Qatar it is then.

Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?

That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

 

 

They play in Maroon and White, that's good enough for me.

[Unknown user]

Thanks to both.

 

Qatar it is then.

Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?

That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

Jake man, ffs, I'm not arguing with you, just correcting a point YOU made. You need to calm down bud, you make some good points but the quality:angry nonsense ratio is starting to shift

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Thanks to both.

 

Qatar it is then.

Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?

That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

Deary me.

[JamboX2]

At one level you have to admire the skill of these Russian forces, especially from the air. In the chaos of East Aleppo they are able to pinpoint civilian targets, with a special emphasis it seems on children's hospitals, and in relation to combatants, distinguish between ISIS targets and others.

Yes. It's called indiscriminate bombing. Using cluster and barrell bombs generally have the effect of pummelling a wider area than just the target.

[JamboX2]

Thanks to both.

 

Qatar it is then.

Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?

That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

Unlike in Russia. Or anywhere else for that.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

I see that that the American folk singer Tom Paxton - he is in Edinburgh later this month - is hoping for a quick "Prexit".

[Unknown user]

I see that that the American folk singer Tom Paxton - he is in Edinburgh later this month - is hoping for a quick "Prexit".

What did you learn in school today dear little boy of mine?

[Francis Albert]

Yes. It's called indiscriminate bombing. Using cluster and barrell bombs generally have the effect of pummelling a wider area than just the target.

So they are not targeting civilians or avoiding ISIS targets, they are just bombing enemy-held areas indiscriminately. A bit like "shock and awe" in Iraq. Or indeed like in practice almost all aerial bombing efforts despite the pretence that you can just hit "the target" and the fancy and selective images of "pinpoint" bombing we put out when we are doing it.

[JamboX2]

So they are not targeting civilians or avoiding ISIS targets, they are just bombing enemy-held areas indiscriminately. A bit like "shock and awe" in Iraq. Or indeed like in practice almost all aerial bombing efforts despite the pretence that you can just hit "the target" and the fancy and selective images of "pinpoint" bombing we put out when we are doing it.

Why are you arguing moral absolutes? I'm not saying Russia - Bad / America & West - Good.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

We do it. It's bad. They do it. It's bad. I'm opposed to the Iraq war. The Afghan debacle and the a large proportion of the mess which is UK foreign policy in the middle east. I thought we might turn the corner when Cameron said you don't impose democracy on a people from 10,000ft. But we are still trying a failing to do so.

 

Libya in itself wasn't a bad action. The lack of any after planning to assist and stabilise the place was. The lack of getting UN involvement (through either the UNSC or the GA) to help in the aftermath and to establish a functioning state is a stain. As is the foolhardy and naive approach to the Arab Spring. As Ulysses said earlier, if there is no history or no democratic or civic structures in place to facilitate this change - because all you've known os strong man governments - then no wonder these uprisings and awakenings of democratic protest fell apart.

 

I'd recommend Adam Curtis's documentary Hypernormalisation. It's on the iplayer and covers a lot of this.

[JamboX2]

So they are not targeting civilians or avoiding ISIS targets, they are just bombing enemy-held areas indiscriminately. A bit like "shock and awe" in Iraq. Or indeed like in practice almost all aerial bombing efforts despite the pretence that you can just hit "the target" and the fancy and selective images of "pinpoint" bombing we put out when we are doing it.

Human Rights Watch. An independent NGOs view of Aleppo bombing: https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/12/01/russia/syria-war-crimes-month-bombing-aleppo

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Thanks to both.

 

Qatar it is then.

Dont want to make a mistake so im guessing that Qatar must be a country where press freedom and freedoms in general are practiced?

That they are in no way influenced by powers in the region?

 

Elvoys can probably get into the various rivalries better than I can, but Al Jazeera and its Qatari backers are very much rivals and political opponents to the Saudis in the region.  The Saudis have a far more traditionalist/reactionary stance, whereas the Qataris (and the rest of the Emirates) have a resolutely modernist vision of a new Arab world.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.

 

We still have four years left of this shite.

[Notts1874]

Meanwhile Trump is insulting John Lewis on MLK weekend after Lewis criticized him.

 

We still have four years left of this shite.

Did he not like the Christmas advert?