Who has suffered the most from Old Firm pilfering?

[The Old Tolbooth]

I was involved in a discussion today with a Celtic fan about them always pinching the rest of Scotland's talent, and quite easily put him in his place when I suggested they don't need a youth set up, because the rest of Scotland is their youth set up, and that before Rangers fell into troubled times, they were exactly the same, but it got me thinking, who has suffered the most because of the Old Firm since David Murray (I deliberately left out the "sir" part), ruined Scottish football in the mid 80's? 

 

We've lost the likes of McPherson, Galloway, McKinlay, McLaren, Ritchie, Pressley, Hartley, and many more who I can't think of right now, and I genuinely thought we'd been worst affected, but then I thought that Hibs had lost a fair few to the uglies as well, but Dundee Utd have lost a few as well as Aberdeen. 

 

So who's suffered most? 

[Gigolo-Aunt]

End of the day, we accepted bids that no other club matched.  A few have headed west and not got much game time, but clubs often sign players and it does not work out.

 

We have also signed plenty players from Glasgow so never quite sure how this works.

[Ray Gin]

I was involved in a discussion today with a Celtic fan about them always pinching the rest of Scotland's talent, and quite easily put him in his place when I suggested they don't need a youth set up, because the rest of Scotland is their youth set up, and that before Rangers fell into troubled times, they were exactly the same, but it got me thinking, who has suffered the most because of the Old Firm since David Murray (I deliberately left out the "sir" part), ruined Scottish football in the mid 80's? 

 

We've lost the likes of McPherson, Galloway, McKinlay, McLaren, Ritchie, Pressley, Hartley, and many more who I can't think of right now, and I genuinely thought we'd been worst affected, but then I thought that Hibs had lost a fair few to the uglies as well, but Dundee Utd have lost a few as well as Aberdeen. 

 

So who's suffered most? 

 

Allan Johnston, Andrius Velicka, Ian Black, Lee Wallace, David Templeton, Neil McCann,  

[jack D and coke]

Allan Johnston, Andrius Velicka, Ian Black, Lee Wallace, David Templeton, Neil McCann,

Lee Wallace is the one who has suffered most out of that lot. Temps wasn't ever going to go much higher but Wallace should've had the Scotland LB place nailed down and be playing in the EPL IMO. He's actually shite now.

[Tazio]

We've lost a lot of players to them over the years, mainly Rangers. However we have never been strip mined like Hibs were a few years ago in one fell swoop. The flip side being that those sales were what gave Hibs their world famous financial stability.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Allan Johnston, Andrius Velicka, Ian Black, Lee Wallace, David Templeton, Neil McCann,  

 

Allan Johnston went to France and I think Sunderland before Rangers?

 

Velicka looking back was a good piece of business by us - never really done much when he left

 

Ian Black was not offered a new contract with us?

 

Lee Wallace I'm sure could have moved down South but there has always been rumours he is a home person and never wanted to relocate that far

 

Thank **** someone gave us money for Templeton as we were ****ed and looking back at how thing have turned out, good business by us

 

Neil McCann was one of the top Scottish players playing in Scotland - not completely a surprise that Rangers or Celtic would have wanted to sign him

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

In the Old days we got the good players before they peaked, and then again after they'd peaked... Rangers and to a lesser extent Celtic enjoyed them at their peak.

 

The best possible thing that could ever happen to Scottish Football, would be a situation where we never see players leave us to go to Celtic or Rangers, but that will never happen until we are on an even footing with them.

 

It's actually less about where a player goes to once they leave Hearts, and more about where they go to after that... How many times have Rangers and Celtic sold mediocre players to English clubs for millions? Most of whom were average at best, and often no better than the players we ship out for peanuts... there's your problem right there...

[Juan Rom?n Riquelme]

I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist about it.

 

If a young, English player in England is performing well there is a good chance Man United, Chelsea or Man City will sign him. 

 

Same with Barcelona and Real Madrid and Spanish players. 

 

It's the perfectly natural progression of a player becoming too good for his present club and getting rewarded with a move to a bigger club with more money.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist about it.

 

If a young, English player in England is performing well there is a good chance Man United, Chelsea or Man City will sign him. 

 

Same with Barcelona and Real Madrid and Spanish players. 

 

It's the perfectly natural progression of a player becoming too good for his present club and getting rewarded with a move to a bigger club with more money.

 

 

Spot on.

[2NaFish]

Velicka looking back was a good piece of business by us - never really done much when he left

 

Velicka went to a norwegian team before he was signed for rangers. Although your point that we got good money (and they in turn paid good money for him) is true.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Velicka went to a norwegian team before he was signed for rangers. Although your point that we got good money (and they in turn paid good money for him) is true.

 

Well remembered, 2NaFish.

 

Have a pozzy

[HamishMcGonagall]

Who gives a ****, we got niemi

[Bauld]

I don't mind them taking a player and then giving them a proper run in the team.

 

What really annoys me and has been a big contribution to the downfall of our game is when they see another team as a potential threat and deliberately take any young player(s) that are showing promise without any real intention of playing them just to make sure they aren't doing a job for their opponents.

 

This tactic of drawing away promising youth with better money contracts has held many teams back from building a team that can challenge celtic or rangers because they can't pay transfer fees to replace them and has ruined many a young players career.

[The Old Tolbooth]

In the Old days we got the good players before they peaked, and then again after they'd peaked... Rangers and to a lesser extent Celtic enjoyed them at their peak.

 

The best possible thing that could ever happen to Scottish Football, would be a situation where we never see players leave us to go to Celtic or Rangers, but that will never happen until we are on an even footing with them.

 

It's actually less about where a player goes to once they leave Hearts, and more about where they go to after that... How many times have Rangers and Celtic sold mediocre players to English clubs for millions? Most of whom were average at best, and often no better than the players we ship out for peanuts... there's your problem right there...

 

You've hit the nail right on the head for me there mate, that's exactly how I feel about it all too. 

[Bazzas right boot]

Who gives a ****, we got niemi

 

and David Hagen!

 

last laugh on Rangers

[ChunkyCharlie]

Lee Wallace is the one who has suffered most out of that lot. Temps wasn't ever going to go much higher but Wallace should've had the Scotland LB place nailed down and be playing in the EPL IMO. He's actually shite now.

Couldn't agree more!

 

Wallace had so much potential.

 

Absolutely

[The Old Tolbooth]

Does anyone have a list of players from clubs who've went West? 

[Bazzas right boot]

Spot on.

 

I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist about it.

 

If a young, English player in England is performing well there is a good chance Man United, Chelsea or Man City will sign him. 

 

Same with Barcelona and Real Madrid and Spanish players. 

 

It's the perfectly natural progression of a player becoming too good for his present club and getting rewarded with a move to a bigger club with more money.

 

Man City seem to be doing a good job of stalling players ( English) careers.

 

There are 2 different issues-

 

Players going on to the OF to better themselves, i.e McLaren, McAnn. It is a nature progression to want to earn money and win more. If Hearts cannot match this they will move. This benefit's the players bank, career and the club that got the fee along with the National team.

Some players, are happy to go as a squad player. This annoys me and hurts players development. Wallace being an example for us, should be an EPL player and IMO one of the best LB's in Britain, he is now tosh ( not Tosh McNilly, just Tosh), Look what Naysmith achieved, Wallace was better at the same age.

 

Players moving for progression should be applauded, players moving for a short term buck should really look at History.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens with Wilson.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

You've hit the nail right on the head for me there mate, that's exactly how I feel about it all too.

I always used to just suck it up and think; "well, they're now playing at a higher level, so that's cool".

 

See when you lose mediocre players who were pivotal to your success to shite Rangers teams on their knees, and suffer the indignity of having to accept less than previously accepted, so that player can fester two league divisions below you?

 

GTF

 

Rangers and Celtic are not Man UTD, Barcelona or Real Madrid... even respectively.

 

There is an Old Firm levy up here when a player is sold, and it's no longer based on international appearances, European games or medals.

[The Old Tolbooth]

I always used to just suck it up and think; "well, they're now playing at a higher level, so that's cool".

 

See when you lose mediocre players who were pivotal to your success to shite Rangers teams on their knees, and suffer the indignity of having to accept less than previously accepted, so that player can fester two league divisions below you?

 

GTF

 

Rangers and Celtic are not Man UTD, Barcelona or Real Madrid... even respectively.

 

There is an Old Firm levy up here when a player is sold, and it's no longer based on international appearances, European games or medals.

 

Exactly!

 

It used to wind me up no ends when a player went to them for peanuts, and then they sold one of their utter huddies to an over rated English side with too much money to spend for silly cash, I always felt hard done by. I don't have a problem with players genuinely going West to further their career, but they signed so many players just for the sake of it to sit on their bench to weaken the rest of the league that it was embarrassing. 

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Exactly!

 

It used to wind me up no ends when a player went to them for peanuts, and then they sold one of their utter huddies to an over rated English side with too much money to spend for silly cash, I always felt hard done by. I don't have a problem with players genuinely going West to further their career, but they signed so many players just for the sake of it to sit on their bench to weaken the rest of the league that it was embarrassing.

Yet some ***** are fine with that.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Man City seem to be doing a good job of stalling players ( English) careers.

 

There are 2 different issues-

 

Players going on to the OF to better themselves, i.e McLaren, McAnn. It is a nature progression to want to earn money and win more. If Hearts cannot match this they will move. This benefit's the players bank, career and the club that got the fee along with the National team.

Some players, are happy to go as a squad player. This annoys me and hurts players development. Wallace being an example for us, should be an EPL player and IMO one of the best LB's in Britain, he is now tosh ( not Tosh McNilly, just Tosh), Look what Naysmith achieved, Wallace was better at the same age.

 

Players moving for progression should be applauded, players moving for a short term buck should really look at History.

 

Will be interesting to see what happens with Wilson.

 

Its not a move that has worked well for some in recent times.   Scott Sinclair being one that stands out.

 

Point was though that the "bigger" teams in the league will invariably sign the better players from clubs lower down the pecking order.   Happens in France, Spain, Italy etc.

[The Old Tolbooth]

Yet some ***** are fine with that.

 

 

I know, it makes you wonder  

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I know, it makes you wonder

[Australis]

Wish they would both just feck off to Engerland and leave Scottish football to the decent cities and towns.

A title fought out between us, Aberdeen,Dundee United and the rest would suit me fine.

No religious filth either.

 

Trouble is Engerland hates them as much as the rest of Scottish football.#.............filthy trash.

#boilonScotlandsnose

[The Old Tolbooth]

Some very valid points, but no one has answered the question yet of who has suffered the most. 

 

Whether you support Hearts, Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, the vermin, or anyone else. which team has lost the most players to the Old Firm duopoly? 

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Wish they would both just feck off to Engerland and leave Scottish football to the decent cities and towns.

A title fought out between us, Aberdeen,Dundee United and the rest would suit me fine.

No religious filth either.

 

Trouble is Engerland hates them as much as the rest of Scottish football.#.............filthy trash.

#boilonScotlandsnose

All cities have their positive and negatives but have to say I find Glasgow a cracking place.

[Bauld]

Some very valid points, but no one has answered the question yet of who has suffered the most.

 

Whether you support Hearts, Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, the vermin, or anyone else. which team has lost the most players to the Old Firm duopoly?

I think it is probably equal over the course of the last 20 years but for a single absolute stripping of talent it would probably be hibs.

[The Old Tolbooth]

All cities have their positive and negatives but have to say I find Glasgow a cracking place.

 

Me too actually, I spend a lot of time there, it's a superb city! 

[Australis]

All cities have their positive and negatives but have to say I find Glasgow a cracking place.

Yep, when I am leaving it, M8 is the place to be heading east.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Me too actually, I spend a lot of time there, it's a superb city!

Ach, it's alright. Bit generic British city, but half decent. Not a patch on Edinburgh, but I've been lucky enough to spend a lot of time in both, as well as other British cities... Weird tangent we've gone off on here though...

 

.

[Martin_T]

Big teams cherry pick smaller teams. Happens in every league in the world.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Big teams cherry pick smaller teams. Happens in every league in the world.

Apparently not.

 

[tcjambo]

Willie Wallace. For years after he left we weren't very good.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Willie Wallace. For years after he left we weren't very good.

The biggest gripe my old man has ever had.

 

Apparently after we desperately accepted peanuts, the Celtic manager told the.press; "I've just signed an.entire forward line".

 

[The Old Tolbooth]

Ach, it's alright. Bit generic British city, but half decent. Not a patch on Edinburgh, but I've been lucky enough to spend a lot of time in both, as well as other British cities... Weird tangent we've gone off on here though...

 

.

 

 

Just a bit  

 

Big teams cherry pick smaller teams. Happens in every league in the world.

 

Aye, we all get that, but that's not the point mate, the point is.......which team has suffered the most due to old firm pilfering? Only Mr Bauld  and Mr Mohsni really got it judging by their answers, but I'd quite like a break down of players being sold out of respective clubs if anyone has that, just so I can measure it all, it really doesn't matter if they went to further their careers, or if the selling clubs gained financially or not, or if every other league in Europe sells their players to their top clubs etc blah blah blah, it's a straight question of which club has suffered the most. 

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Greig and Jardine have to put us firmly in the "could have been" category. Allan Johnston, Slim, Mclaren, Mccan...

[Busby8]

I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist about it.

 

If a young, English player in England is performing well there is a good chance Man United, Chelsea or Man City will sign him. 

 

Same with Barcelona and Real Madrid and Spanish players. 

 

It's the perfectly natural progression of a player becoming too good for his present club and getting rewarded with a move to a bigger club with more money.

 

 

The thing is, they, ( the OF , or what is left of them ), then greet about there being lack of competition from other Scottish clubs when they themselves are the main cause.

 

Think it was only last week that Andy feckin Walker wrote a piece about the rest of Scottish football holding Celtic's progress back !!

That idiot wouldn't know irony if it slapped him in the puss.

 

And don't get me started about this idea that we should all be supporting Celtic in their European campaigns simply because they play in the SPFL.

I'll support them as much as I do the English national team.

 

.

[The Old Tolbooth]

Greig and Jardine have to put us firmly in the "could have been" category. Allan Johnston, Slim, Mclaren, Mccan...

 

McCann was a sore one for me, I loved that we fecker, I didn't want money, beer, or sex, I just didn't want to see him go man  

[The Old Tolbooth]

The thing is, they, ( the OF , or what is left of them ), then greet about there being lack of competition from other Scottish clubs when they themselves are the main cause.

 

Think it was only last week that Andy feckin Walker wrote a piece about the rest of Scottish football holding Celtic's progress back !!

That idiot wouldn't know irony if it slapped him in the puss.

 

And don't get me started about this idea that we should all be supporting Celtic in their European campaigns simply because they play in the SPFL.

I'll support them as much as I do the English national team.

 

.

 

I'm with you Busby, all the way! 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It depends how you would define "pilfering". In the 90s, I would have said Dundee United but they used the proceeds of Drunken Duncan, Cleland, Bollan et al to rebuild Tannadice as a result of the Taylor report. Then you could argue the vermin golden generation went west but the vermin did well to get the transfer fees they did, and waste them!

[Gizmo]

Well certainly you can see a great example of the damage done to a team when Celtic pilfered players from Dundee Utd last season.

I suppose to really quantify who suffered the most you would not only have to look at the talent lost but how the team was doing before and after.

Accepting that the richer clubs will buy players as inevitable is one thing. But accepting them buying players solely to weaken the opposition and then have the hypocrisy to complain about lack of competition is risible.

[The Old Tolbooth]

It depends how you would define "pilfering". In the 90s, I would have said Dundee United but they used the proceeds of Drunken Duncan, Cleland, Bollan et al to rebuild Tannadice as a result of the Taylor report. Then you could argue the vermin golden generation went west but the vermin did well to get the transfer fees they did, and waste them!

 

A good question mate, I meant "pilfering" as in the fans of the respective teams suffering the most in respect of losing players that they didn't want to see go anywhere else regardless of the money coming in, which pretty much means that if we were offered ?20m for Robbo back in the day, then no matter what, we would turn it down because we wanted to keep the player and money didn't matter. 

 

If I'm being honest, I actually agree with Bauld above as I think that if Hibs didn't lose that golden crop of players to the Old Firm when they did, then they might have been onto something. 

[The Old Tolbooth]

Well certainly you can see a great example of the damage done to a team when Celtic pilfered players from Dundee Utd last season.

 

I suppose to really quantify who suffered the most you would not only have to look at the talent lost but how the team was doing before and after.

 

Accepting that the richer clubs will buy players as inevitable is one thing. But accepting them buying players solely to weaken the opposition and then have the hypocrisy to complain about lack of competition is risible.

 

Totally with you on that one mate, 100%! 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

A good question mate, I meant "pilfering" as in the fans of the respective teams suffering the most in respect of losing players that they didn't want to see go anywhere else regardless of the money coming in, which pretty much means that if we were offered ?20m for Robbo back in the day, then no matter what, we would turn it down because we wanted to keep the player and money didn't matter. 

 

If I'm being honest, I actually agree with Bauld above as I think that if Hibs didn't lose that golden crop of players to the Old Firm when they did, then they might have been onto something. 

That's the thing though. No one in Scotland, even the arse cheeks, could have turned down silly money.

 

We sold players under their true value due to our financial position (McLaren, Cameron and Niemi all come to mind in that regard) and other players got tapped (Johnston, Ritchie). You can understand the former. The latter were the ones that stuck in the craw but the corollary to that is how we used Bosman to bring in Rousset, Bruno, Adam, Flogel et al.

[Konrad von Carstein]

I think one of the teams that suffered most was Dundee when rangers signed the Polish midfielder that was a standout for them. Think he sat on the bench his whole ibrox career.Cannot mind his name though

[Tazio]

I think one of the teams that suffered most was Dundee when rangers signed the Polish midfielder that was a standout for them. Think he sat on the bench his whole ibrox career.Cannot mind his name though

I'd say the Paul Ritchie situation was worse. Destabilised at Hearts then ignored by Advocaat after scoring an own goal in a friendly. Then they sold him for a tidy sum. ?500k if I remember correctly. Handily weakening out team and making money out of doing it.

[FarmerTweedy]

I don't know why people get their knickers in a twist about it.

 

If a young, English player in England is performing well there is a good chance Man United, Chelsea or Man City will sign him. 

 

Same with Barcelona and Real Madrid and Spanish players. 

 

It's the perfectly natural progression of a player becoming too good for his present club and getting rewarded with a move to a bigger club with more money.

 

The thing that I have a problem with is when the old firm would offer us fees well below what would generally be perceived as reasonable value for the quality of player in question, then announce to all and sundry that they wanted the player.  We then have a situation where the player knows one of the toxic twins wants them, and suddenly no longer wants to be at Hearts. We then have to decide on whether we hold on to a player who doesn't want to be here (and possibly won't perform to the same level any more) or accept an offer that falls well short of our valuation of the player.  It's probably the situation Dundee Utd felt they were in in January.

[niblick1874]

Willie Wallace. For years after he left we weren't very good.

I think that all that were around at the time will say this, for me nothing comes close. By the time Donald Ford was at his peak I was pretty much over it just a shame the rest were not up to his standard, that's not to say there weren't good players with us at the time. Since then I haven't been that bothered because all I have to do is think of JC  as for the op's question I would have to look at the best teams that were around before they ******** started brining in more players from abroad but it's a tough one without looking at the stats and even then everybody has their opinion of who was better than who. After all that you have to take into accout players they took just to weaken other teams Ask us an easier one John .

[fila]

The majority of these players didn't come through our youth system, we got then from another clubs , proir to them moving on , so what is the problem?