Fracking

[tartofmidlothian]

Surprised there's no thread about it on here. What do people think? I'm no expert but it all seems pretty scary. Not the potential benefits but the typically shifty way the government want to rewrite laws to push it through.

[doctor jambo]

Surprised there's no thread about it on here. What do people think? I'm no expert but it all seems pretty scary. Not the potential benefits but the typically shifty way the government want to rewrite laws to push it through.

Pros and cons really

Either we face much higher fuel bills in future as we begin to import all our gas from the Russians, so more people freeze to death in winter and plastic good sbecome more expensive, and the green issue with importing shale gas from the states.

OR

we frack, prices fall, we stay warm , employment rises and economic growth continues- but real engineering growth at that

no brainer

[cuthy2k]

I'm not sure that prices will fall in the medium to long term... 

 

Also, check out some of the published images of US & Canada fracking activities (don't just look at Greenpeace propaganda!), these things happen on a large scale in areas the size of the entire UK; the drilling sites, storage and transportation activities will be challenging to contain in these small isles.  

 

For me the main issue is the contamination of groundwater, which eventually makes its way to drinking supplies - how do we know this wont happen? I'm not talking about the leftie 'I will be able to set my water on fire' brigade here, but chemical agents leaching from the reservoir rocks. 

[tartofmidlothian]

I'm not sure that prices will fall in the medium to long term...

 

Also, check out some of the published images of US & Canada fracking activities (don't just look at Greenpeace propaganda!), these things happen on a large scale in areas the size of the entire UK; the drilling sites, storage and transportation activities will be challenging to contain in these small isles.

 

For me the main issue is the contamination of groundwater, which eventually makes its way to drinking supplies - how do we know this wont happen? I'm not talking about the leftie 'I will be able to set my water on fire' brigade here, but chemical agents leaching from the reservoir rocks.

Don't think it's necessarily a leftie thing to be concerned about fracking, I bet Tory heartlands would be up in arms if it was happening there.

[Tazio]

Don't think it's necessarily a leftie thing to be concerned about fracking, I bet Tory heartlands would be up in arms if it was happening there.

 

And it will reach them in time, like all resources it is finite, just wait until it hits the home counties, expect special legislation when it does. 

[doctor jambo]

Don't think it's necessarily a leftie thing to be concerned about fracking, I bet Tory heartlands would be up in arms if it was happening there.

Of course - but that's the whole thing

Power generated in the periphery where the damage is caused (Denny power line, Nuclear stations, coal mines, wind turbines) then consumed centrally.

Yet they still want cheap power .

NImby

I don't care.

People around nuclear power plants live longer because their wages are higher so can eat better etc.

Same will apply here

[Tazio]

And it will reach them in time, like all resources it is finite, just wait until it hits the home counties, expect special legislation when it does. 

 

Actually it turns out there is more than I thought in the South East, nowhere near the scale in the North West and North East.

 

http://frack-off.org.uk/locations/

[Don Dan]

http://www.what-is-fracking.com/what-is-hydraulic-fracking/

 

Personally I've no problem with this technology. How it would fit into these isles would need to be managed properly so as no damage is done.

We will be buying gas from the fracking fields in the USA so why not frack our own whilst it's feasible.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Gas & oil is a global price, folk who think it's gonna benefit them need a reality check, how's that cheap scottish oil working for you ?

[The Comedian]

If this can be pished away, or ruin the environment or be done in such a way as to provide absolutely no tangible benefit to the people of Britain then that's exactly what will happen.

[tartofmidlothian]

If this can be pished away, or ruin the environment or be done in such a way as to provide absolutely no tangible benefit to the people of Britain then that's exactly what will happen.

 

Highly accurate, I reckon.

[systemx]

the same people who are leading the anti-fracking campaign are exactly the same people who campaigned against mobile base station masts.Much of their work is now done using smartphones and tablets.They seem to get their kicks by frightening people,mostly running stories about children getting cancers.

[Peebo]

Not in my back yard...unless it comes with a big fat royalty check.

[neave]

It's a perfect example of the short-termism that characterises the actions of most in power nowadays.

 

Cheap, quick and easy to implement, it will bring about favourable economic and geopolitical conditions for those exploiting it, but is absolutely disastrous environmentally and sustains the ruinous carbon addiction of modern energy consumption. Those effects won't be felt until after a few more Governments' time though, so that's cool. It'll be someone else's problem by then.

 

In an age where we have the choice to pursue medium to long-term goals beneficial to humanity as a whole, it speaks volumes that contemporary Governments are siding with the low-hanging fruit of corporate profit.

[redm]

Been losing the heid on Twitter tonight watching all these lying arsepiece labour MPs lying their backsides off about what happened with the vote. "We voted against fracking" they say - EH NO. You didn't. You really didn't. "We got extra protections!" they say - EH NO, you didn't. You voted for standard environmental protections and onshore drilling best practice.

 

Meanwhile sodding Murphy is prancing about at Pittodrie like a full kit after days of anti-fracking triple lock bollocks.

 

Nothing says courage of conviction quite like an abstention.

[Peebo]

It's a perfect example of the short-termism that characterises the actions of most in power nowadays.

 

Cheap, quick and easy to implement, it will bring about favourable economic and geopolitical conditions for those exploiting it, but is absolutely disastrous environmentally and sustains the ruinous carbon addiction of modern energy consumption. Those effects won't be felt until after a few more Governments' time though, so that's cool. It'll be someone else's problem by then.

 

In an age where we have the choice to pursue medium to long-term goals beneficial to humanity as a whole, it speaks volumes that contemporary Governments are siding with the low-hanging fruit of corporate profit.

Fracking ain't cheap, mate, as the numerous oil companies teetering on the verge of financial ruin will testify.

[neave]

Fracking ain't cheap, mate, as the numerous oil companies teetering on the verge of financial ruin will testify.

Aye, true I suppose. It's obviously got the potential to be highly profitable though - more of a quick buck than heavy investment in renewables.

[Currahee!]

I don't know enough about it regarding the environmental issue.

 

It won't lead to cheaper bills though. That's the governments way if pushing it through.

 

Higher dividends for shareholders is how it should be worded.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

I see WM MPs voted against it being devolved. More hypocrisy and another blow to the smiths commission.

[Peebo]

Aye, true I suppose. It's obviously got the potential to be highly profitable though - more of a quick buck than heavy investment in renewables.

Potential, perhaps, but again, many oil & gas companies would tell you it's actually pretty hard to turn a profit from shale. Lots of conditions have to be correct, above and below ground, and I'm not convinced they are in the UK to actually see shale development take off.

[Stuart Lyon]

Scotland had a shale oil industry that started in 1851 - see link

 

http://www.scottishshale.co.uk

 

And what about this twat

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723

[Peebo]

Scotland had a shale oil industry that started in 1851 - see link

 

http://www.scottishshale.co.uk

 

And what about this ****

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723

That type of "shale oil" is something quite different. And even worse, environmentally!

[Stuart Lyon]

Peebo - I didn't know there are 'types' of shale oil!

[neave]

Potential, perhaps, but again, many oil & gas companies would tell you it's actually pretty hard to turn a profit from shale. Lots of conditions have to be correct, above and below ground, and I'm not convinced they are in the UK to actually see shale development take off.

So what are the oil companies' motives for pursuing it if it isn't profitable? Just an inert fear of anything that isn't fossil-based?

 

If so, that's almost worse. Regarding its feasibility in the UK, is Cameron's pursuit just a desperate attempt to keep up with the Joneses or bowing to corporate pressure?

[Peebo]

So what are the oil companies' motives for pursuing it if it isn't profitable? Just an inert fear of anything that isn't fossil-based?

 

If so, that's almost worse. Regarding its feasibility in the UK, is Cameron's pursuit just a desperate attempt to keep up with the Joneses or bowing to corporate pressure?

They are pursuing it because they believe they can make a profit (although actually some pursue it because shale "resources" are sexy for investors), just like the majority of other businesses operate. The reality, however, can prove different.

[Peebo]

Peebo - I didn't know there are 'types' of shale oil!

The old-style "shale oil" involved basically heating up chunks of rocks to actually create oil (by cooking existing matter).

 

Modern "shale oil", or "tight oil", development sees existing oil deposits being produced through hydraulic fracturing (cracking open the rocks, basically).

[Glamorgan Jambo]

There have been planning applications approved for drilling to assess potential for fracking very close to where I live.

 

As you can imagine there was uproar over the whole issue as I live in a fairly rural area 10 miles to the west of Cardiff.

 

By chance the professor of Geosciences at Oxford is a local boy so he was invited to give a talk about the pro's and cons. All I'd say after listening to him is that the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle of the hype presented by both sides.

 

We already have fracking in the UK - Wytch Farm in Dorset - one of the largest onshore oil/gas reservoirs in western Europe. And this has gone on for years and is fairly well enclosed and locals are used to it. So I think the hysteria about earthquakes and gas contamination of water supplies is just that --- hysteria.

 

On the other hand whenever the gov't gets involved and starts giving subsidies and tax breaks there's a Klondike style rush to claim these, regardless of the viability. A small test programme seems to always be ruled out in favour of a free for all ,which is what he have with all sorts of chancers at the head of the queue.

 

FWIW the geosciences Prof said (18 months ago) that the only places in the UK where fracking may be feasible (almost all of the oil majors have no interest leaving it to a bunch of people with little experience) are the northwest of England - probably offshore in Morecambe Bay - the wells would be drilled onshore though - and the south east of England - especially Kent.

 

And 2 years since planning permission was given for test drilling not one has been started. I suspect the small matter of a million USD per well is the barrier as the guys who have the planning approval have nowhere near that money of their own to throw around and no-one's going to give it to them.

[tartofmidlothian]

There have been planning applications approved for drilling to assess potential for fracking very close to where I live.

 

As you can imagine there was uproar over the whole issue as I live in a fairly rural area 10 miles to the west of Cardiff.

 

By chance the professor of Geosciences at Oxford is a local boy so he was invited to give a talk about the pro's and cons. All I'd say after listening to him is that the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle of the hype presented by both sides.

 

We already have fracking in the UK - Wytch Farm in Dorset - one of the largest onshore oil/gas reservoirs in western Europe. And this has gone on for years and is fairly well enclosed and locals are used to it. So I think the hysteria about earthquakes and gas contamination of water supplies is just that --- hysteria.

 

On the other hand whenever the gov't gets involved and starts giving subsidies and tax breaks there's a Klondike style rush to claim these, regardless of the viability. A small test programme seems to always be ruled out in favour of a free for all ,which is what he have with all sorts of chancers at the head of the queue.

 

FWIW the geosciences Prof said (18 months ago) that the only places in the UK where fracking may be feasible (almost all of the oil majors have no interest leaving it to a bunch of people with little experience) are the northwest of England - probably offshore in Morecambe Bay - the wells would be drilled onshore though - and the south east of England - especially Kent.

 

And 2 years since planning permission was given for test drilling not one has been started. I suspect the small matter of a million USD per well is the barrier as the guys who have the planning approval have nowhere near that money of their own to throw around and no-one's going to give it to them.

 

This is my gut feeling on the matter, as it is on any subject where people on both sides are ramping up the polemic. I bet done properly it's no more dangerous than coal-mining or quarrying, but it's the government's ridiculous haste to rewrite rules and gloss over public concerns that I find unpleasant.

[parker]

More nuclear power, please. 

 

On fracking - environmentally it's a terrible idea so for that reason alone it should be shelved. But it won't

[indianajones]

More nuclear power, please. 

 

On fracking - environmentally it's a terrible idea so for that reason alone it should be shelved. But it won't

 

 

Another vote against fracking here. I hope it doesnt happen.

 

Nuclear is a bit scary too in all honesty. I know there arent many records of incidents in the past but the ones that are there are pretty catastrophic. Plus, what do you do with tonnes of depleted radioactive material?

 

Hydro energy is key. Especially in Scotland. 

[Pans Jambo]

Fracking and nuclear - no thanks.

 

See when they fling up these new houses, how about super SUPER insulating them and using solar heated insulating glass, putting a dozen or so solar panels on each roof and invest in lots of small localised power generation such as underground thermal, small scale hydro and community wind turbines.

 

That lot wont supply 100% of the power we need but it would certainly bite into a massive chunk of it and mean that fracking etc would not be needed.

[trotter]

So what are the oil companies' motives for pursuing it if it isn't profitable? Just an inert fear of anything that isn't fossil-based?

 

If so, that's almost worse. Regarding its feasibility in the UK, is Cameron's pursuit just a desperate attempt to keep up with the Joneses or bowing to corporate pressure?

 

In addition to what Peebo wrote, shale oil is a type of 'unconventional' reserve. When the oil price is low it isn't profitable to extract and process it, but when the price goes high it just may be*. Oil companies forever turn reserves on and off (for want of a better description) to maintain profitability. 

 

*This is one chain of thought as to why OPEC (read, the Saudis) haven't cut production like they normally do recently and are driving the price through the floor. If a barrel drops below a certain value, most shale projects aren't profitable and so will be mothballed/shelved/delayed. However, the Saudis still make profit down to a value of $20-30 IIRC. They know that if they take a short-term (say, 6 months) cut in profits, the knock-on effect will be to delay shale projects by around 12-18 months. Mark my words, the current price will start to go up, until a while down the road and the shale projects start gaining momentum again and all of a sudden we will see prices plummet. 

[Peebo]

In addition to what Peebo wrote, shale oil is a type of 'unconventional' reserve. When the oil price is low it isn't profitable to extract and process it, but when the price goes high it just may be*. Oil companies forever turn reserves on and off (for want of a better description) to maintain profitability.

 

*This is one chain of thought as to why OPEC (read, the Saudis) haven't cut production like they normally do recently and are driving the price through the floor. If a barrel drops below a certain value, most shale projects aren't profitable and so will be mothballed/shelved/delayed. However, the Saudis still make profit down to a value of $20-30 IIRC. They know that if they take a short-term (say, 6 months) cut in profits, the knock-on effect will be to delay shale projects by around 12-18 months. Mark my words, the current price will start to go up, until a while down the road and the shale projects start gaining momentum again and all of a sudden we will see prices plummet.

Even in the high oil price environment of 6 months ago or so, many shale players were actually toiling to make it work, financially.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

I have read a lot about fracking - even sat through presentations by the frackers.

 

The two sides are diametrically opposed in their ideology.

 

I have come to the conclusion that one bunch are being economical with the truth and the others are total bare-faced liars.

[tartofmidlothian]

I have read a lot about fracking - even sat through presentations by the frackers.

 

The two sides are diametrically opposed in their ideology.

 

I have come to the conclusion that one bunch are being economical with the truth and the others are total bare-faced liars.

 

Which is which?

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

"I have read a lot about fracking - even sat through presentations by the frackers.

The two sides are diametrically opposed in their ideology.

I have come to the conclusion that one bunch are being economical with the truth and the others are total bare-faced liars.

Which is which?"
 

It is a gut feeling, but I think there are things the fracking companies are not telling us.  Sorry I can't be more specific.
But there are things that the anti-frackers say that have been shown to be untruths yet they constantly peddle them - contaminating water supplies for example.
(It may also be that my prejudices have been coloured on learning that some anti-frackers are long term career anti-everythings).

On the one hand, I guess I would say we should frack if it means a sustainable energy supply for generations to come.
On the other, if anyone suggests a plant for extracting methane from the old council dump site 200 yards from my house then I am chaining myself to the first JCB...

[Peebo]

"I have read a lot about fracking - even sat through presentations by the frackers.

 

The two sides are diametrically opposed in their ideology.

 

I have come to the conclusion that one bunch are being economical with the truth and the others are total bare-faced liars.

 

Which is which?"

 

It is a gut feeling, but I think there are things the fracking companies are not telling us. Sorry I can't be more specific.

But there are things that the anti-frackers say that have been shown to be untruths yet they constantly peddle them - contaminating water supplies for example.

(It may also be that my prejudices have been coloured on learning that some anti-frackers are long term career anti-everythings).

 

On the one hand, I guess I would say we should frack if it means a sustainable energy supply for generations to come.

On the other, if anyone suggests a plant for extracting methane from the old council dump site 200 yards from my house then I am chaining myself to the first JCB...

That's the first time I've seen anyone suggest that fracking provides a sustainable energy supply! Probably couldn't be any further from that...

[Cade]

The main problem is that demand for energy is growing faster than we can supply it. We can't build nuclear reactors fast enough for them to be the only answer. Cutting energy use via better insulation, more efficient technology (both at home and in the workplace) helps slow the rising demand.

We should install solar panels on the roof of every new build, mini turbines on roofs to replace old style chimney stacks and invest heavily into hydro. Hydro not only boosts the power grid but has the added benefit of forming huge reservoirs of fresh water, which itself is in high demand.

 

Until nuclear fusion becomes a viable thing, squeezing an extra few years out of fossil fuels by increasingly dodgy methods like fracking is not going to be enough.

[trotter]

The main problem is that demand for energy is growing faster than we can supply it. We can't build nuclear reactors fast enough for them to be the only answer. Cutting energy use via better insulation, more efficient technology (both at home and in the workplace) helps slow the rising demand.

We should install solar panels on the roof of every new build, mini turbines on roofs to replace old style chimney stacks and invest heavily into hydro. Hydro not only boosts the power grid but has the added benefit of forming huge reservoirs of fresh water, which itself is in high demand.

 

Until nuclear fusion becomes a viable thing, squeezing an extra few years out of fossil fuels by increasingly dodgy methods like fracking is not going to be enough.

 

We can physically build them quickly. However, it's getting the land sorted, permissions and all that nonsense is what takes forever and a day. 

[Peebo]

The main problem is that demand for energy is growing faster than we can supply it. We can't build nuclear reactors fast enough for them to be the only answer. Cutting energy use via better insulation, more efficient technology (both at home and in the workplace) helps slow the rising demand.

We should install solar panels on the roof of every new build, mini turbines on roofs to replace old style chimney stacks and invest heavily into hydro. Hydro not only boosts the power grid but has the added benefit of forming huge reservoirs of fresh water, which itself is in high demand.

 

Until nuclear fusion becomes a viable thing, squeezing an extra few years out of fossil fuels by increasingly dodgy methods like fracking is not going to be enough.

I would agree with much of the sentiment here, but worth noting that the supply of hydrocarbons (a key source of energy) had actually grown faster than demand recently, hence the tanking of gas, then oil prices. Why? Largely because of the success of fracking technology.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

That's the first time I've seen anyone suggest that fracking provides a sustainable energy supply! Probably couldn't be any further from that...

Yep, wrong word. Meant reliable.

 

On the other hand, what about coal? Some people say there is as much, or more, coal left under the UK and under the seas as we have ever used - hundreds more years worth.

[Cade]

I would agree with much of the sentiment here, but worth noting that the supply of hydrocarbons (a key source of energy) had actually grown faster than demand recently, hence the tanking of gas, then oil prices. Why? Largely because of the success of fracking technology.

 

Gas and oil prices have tanked because the USA and OPEC are in a tug of war willy waving contest over who is the worlds #1 producer of crude oil.

Both of them are ramping up extraction and give no shites about the crashing prices. 

The fact that falling oil prices hurts IS and Russia is just a happy bonus for both of them.

[CJGJ]

Fracking banned for now in Scotland

 

The Scottish government has announced a block on planned fracking operations, pending further inquiries.

Ministers will carry out further work on the environmental and health implications of the controversial gas drilling technique.

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31016537

[Peebo]

Gas and oil prices have tanked because the USA and OPEC are in a tug of war willy waving contest over who is the worlds #1 producer of crude oil.

Both of them are ramping up extraction and give no shites about the crashing prices.

The fact that falling oil prices hurts IS and Russia is just a happy bonus for both of them.

The US, as a country, doesn't actually have much control over how much oil and gas the US produces. And loads of US oil companies are really suffering, and parts of the economy are, too (other parts are benefiting!).

 

The rise of US supply is singularly due to the successful application of fracking.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

The US, as a country, doesn't actually have much control over how much oil and gas the US produces. And loads of US oil companies are really suffering, and parts of the economy are, too (other parts are benefiting!).

 

The rise of US supply is singularly due to the successful application of fracking.

 

I'd agree with you there.

 

I'd suggest though that the US has a fair bit of control over how much oil the Saudis are producing though...

[Peebo]

I'd agree with you there.

 

I'd suggest though that the US has a fair bit of control over how much oil the Saudis are producing though...

Not so sure about that, personally...at least, nothing in the last few months has suggested that.

[GBJambo]

Fracking banned for now in Scotland

 

The Scottish government has announced a block on planned fracking operations, pending further inquiries.

Ministers will carry out further work on the environmental and health implications of the controversial gas drilling technique.

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31016537

The snp had previously said they didn't have the power to block fracking?

[GBJambo]

Actually it's just a moratorium until after the election. They haven't written off fracking.

[RosscoC]

Actually it's just a moratorium until after the election. They haven't written off fracking.

So where does that leave you on the "slag SNP in every scenario" front?