The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[Diadora Van Basten]

According to my banking friend Peter Cummings sunk HBOS.

 

Peter Cummings provided loans of ?759 million to David Murrays companies http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17656555

 

I believe that the culture at HBOS allowed Peter Cummings to provide loans to friends such as David Murray without going through normal procedures. The culture was also that these loans were given at restaurants such as Oloruso rather than st the bank itself.

[John Findlay]

What did he do that is legally wrong ?...morally he has a case to answer but legally there nothing he can seemingly be charged with .

 

Of course Murray started the decline as he had their rise but the bank were effectively in control of Rangers when the entity was sold and Murray had no or little choice but to sell (of course the debt was also as a result of his poor decision making in running up such a debt when the economic crisis hit the world)

The bank did not care who released them from the debt and put pressure on Murray and co to take the first offer without any thought whatsoever of just who was completing the purchase. The debt was reducing whilst they were in control in everything but name .. of course there was none of the investment in playing staff which was common when Murray was in control.

 

If we are apportioning 'blame' look at Lloyds Bank as well as Murray....the bank wanted out and as we have seen since many deals were made to reduce football debt.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15393428

IMHO. A bigger crook than Romanov.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

What did he do that is legally wrong ?...morally he has a case to answer but legally there nothing he can seemingly be charged with .

 

Of course Murray started the decline as he had their rise but the bank were effectively in control of Rangers when the entity was sold and Murray had no or little choice but to sell (of course the debt was also as a result of his poor decision making in running up such a debt when the economic crisis hit the world)

The bank did not care who released them from the debt and put pressure on Murray and co to take the first offer without any thought whatsoever of just who was completing the purchase.  The debt was reducing whilst they were in control in everything but name .. of course there was none of the investment in playing staff which was common when Murray was in control.

 

If we are apportioning 'blame' look at Lloyds Bank as well as Murray....the bank wanted out and as we have seen since many deals were made to reduce football debt.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15393428

I think the bank put pressure on Murray to clear the ?18m debt; they left it up to him how he achieved that.

 

Murray made the mess, just as he did with all his other businesses, and he still had his personal fortune, much of which he'd taken from Rangers, with which he could have repaid Lloyds, but he chose not to do so. Lloyds Bank were still out the millions from the Rangers' debt that Murray had transferred to MIH, and hadn't been at all to blame for the mess the club was in. In fact, it is highly likely that, without their intervention, things would have got a lot worse while Murray's ego allowed Walter Smith to rack up player costs. The bank had nothing to do with the DOS Scheme or EBTs, you forgot to mention them in your post, and even if the bank were prepared to give Murray more time, he would still have been looking to get rid of Rangers, to the first person to offer him a pound, before the EBT case went to court.

 

Rangers FC is being liquidated as a result of Murray's stewardship, with, perhaps, some of the blame belonging to the support for demanding so much, and Lloyds did their best to sort it out, but the damage was done long before they took over the running of the club's accounts, and the club itself.

 

Lloyds were to Murray what Ashley was to Green; a common sense approach stymied by the WATP mentality! Both had the temerity to want their money back. Imagine that!

[Unknown user]

According to my banking friend Peter Cummings sunk HBOS.

 

Peter Cummings provided loans of ?759 million to David Murrays companies http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17656555

 

I believe that the culture at HBOS allowed Peter Cummings to provide loans to friends such as David Murray without going through normal procedures. The culture was also that these loans were given at restaurants such as Oloruso rather than st the bank itself.

Greed sunk them. I worked for one of their competitors before everything went tits up, and it's fair to say that general lending policies were a disgrace. I was allowed to offer secured loans up to 120% of the value of a property, which to you or I clearly isn't secured at all. And all based on the assumption that house prices will just continue to rise and rise.

 

Never forget that banks are run from quarterly result to quarterly result, and that a small hit in the short term to benefit the long term is unacceptable when shareholders demand dividends and results now.

[Diadora Van Basten]

I wonder if the decision by the SFA to let Rangers shed their debt and start again meant that the risk level to banks from Scottish football teams led to them being unbankable.

[corryjambo]

Greed sunk them. I worked for one of their competitors before everything went tits up, and it's fair to say that general lending policies were a disgrace. I was allowed to offer secured loans up to 120% of the value of a property, which to you or I clearly isn't secured at all. And all based on the assumption that house prices will just continue to rise and rise.

 

Never forget that banks are run from quarterly result to quarterly result, and that a small hit in the short term to benefit the long term is unacceptable when shareholders demand dividends and results now.

 

Northern Rock by any chance Smithee?

[CJGJ]

I think the bank put pressure on Murray to clear the ?18m debt; they left it up to him how he achieved that.

 

Murray made the mess, just as he did with all his other businesses, and he still had his personal fortune, much of which he'd taken from Rangers, with which he could have repaid Lloyds, but he chose not to do so. Lloyds Bank were still out the millions from the Rangers' debt that Murray had transferred to MIH, and hadn't been at all to blame for the mess the club was in. In fact, it is highly likely that, without their intervention, things would have got a lot worse while Murray's ego allowed Walter Smith to rack up player costs. The bank had nothing to do with the DOS Scheme or EBTs, you forgot to mention them in your post, and even if the bank were prepared to give Murray more time, he would still have been looking to get rid of Rangers, to the first person to offer him a pound, before the EBT case went to court.

 

Rangers FC is being liquidated as a result of Murray's stewardship, with, perhaps, some of the blame belonging to the support for demanding so much, and Lloyds did their best to sort it out, but the damage was done long before they took over the running of the club's accounts, and the club itself.

 

Lloyds were to Murray what Ashley was to Green; a common sense approach stymied by the WATP mentality! Both had the temerity to want their money back. Imagine that!

At the time of sale there was no decision in the EBT case and indeed the case was 'won' in the first court hearing from the Rangers that was point of view

 

Just as my comments are opinion so are yours and in my opinion the bank made sure the sale went through.  Murray has a large part to do with it in terms of running up the debt but to date no case has been raised against him so whilst you may not like it he did not it seems do anything illegal unless of course you know better.

He should be held to account for his part in the whole matter but whether there is a legal case is doubtful

 

I have to smile at your attempt to paint Lloyds whiter than white as if they were the saviours of the club given their track record...they simply wanted their money back and didn't care who gave them it.

Just like a house seller they wanted the best deal and didn't really care who moves in to the house and what happens to their neighbours once they've left

They appointed Donald Muir to the Rangers board and the other board members were in no doubt that Lloyds wanted the sale to go through placing pressure on them to fall into line even though there were clear doubts raised around Craig Whyte.

People like Martin Bain and Alistair Johnston did not do enough to raise questions publicly re the sale even if privately they had doubts...they also have to share part of the blame along with other club officials.

 

There's a long list of people who could have done more...Murray, Lloyds, Bain, Johnston, the footballing authorities, those board members also around at the time and much of the press/media.........not forgetting Craig Whyte of course.

[Unknown user]

Northern Rock by any chance Smithee?

No mate, I was with ltsb, the whole sector was at it

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

At the time of sale there was no decision in the EBT case and indeed the case was 'won' in the first court hearing from the Rangers that was point of view

 

Just as my comments are opinion so are yours and in my opinion the bank made sure the sale went through.  Murray has a large part to do with it in terms of running up the debt but to date no case has been raised against him so whilst you may not like it he did not it seems do anything illegal unless of course you know better.

He should be held to account for his part in the whole matter but whether there is a legal case is doubtful

 

I have to smile at your attempt to paint Lloyds whiter than white as if they were the saviours of the club given their track record...they simply wanted their money back and didn't care who gave them it.

Just like a house seller they wanted the best deal and didn't really care who moves in to the house and what happens to their neighbours once they've left

They appointed Donald Muir to the Rangers board and the other board members were in no doubt that Lloyds wanted the sale to go through placing pressure on them to fall into line even though there were clear doubts raised around Craig Whyte.

People like Martin Bain and Alistair Johnston did not do enough to raise questions publicly re the sale even if privately they had doubts...they also have to share part of the blame along with other club officials.

 

There's a long list of people who could have done more...Murray, Lloyds, Bain, Johnston, the footballing authorities, those board members also around at the time and much of the press/media.........not forgetting Craig Whyte of course.

Where on earth do I say Murray did anything illegal? I say he was to blame, almost 100% to blame, but make no comment on the legality of his actions. 

 

When you say 'they simply wanted their money back', you are more or less saying what I've just said; unless you know different, is there anything wrong with that? Is it only when it's Rangers that banks shouldn't want their money back, or do you have a deal with your bank that you don't have to repay any loans you have?

 

Again, Lloyds weren't insisting that the club was sold to Whyte, or to anyone, they just wanted their money back. Donald Muir was put in to try to get the club into a better state, and, if necessary, more saleable. Either because it was already a lost cause, or because too many obstacles were put in his way by the men you say were partially to blame (by their lack of attention to duty) and the supporters' demands for success, he was unsuccessful. Do you have any knowledge that he was bad at his job, or that he deliberately made the club less attractive to an honest buyer?

 

Lastly, Do you honestly believe that Murray wasn't desperate, himself, to get rid of Rangers before the EBT case began? Don't you think that it was the EBT case, more than anything, that made Rangers unsaleable? It was Murray who introduced the EBT scheme to Rangers. It was Murray who gave himself a ?6m EBT. It was Murray who was taking ?500,000 a year from the club for administering the scheme.

 

But it was all Lloyds' fault for wanting their money back!

[buzzbomb1958]

The record are running a piece on it.

 

Would you buy anything from this man?

[Don Dan]

What will he do now? (I'm surprised the record printed this)

[buzzbomb1958]

What will he do now? (I'm surprised the record printed this)

They are saying he could be taken to court and he may have to lodge the 11mill to cover all eventualities also he may have to pay a financial services company anything from1/2 mil to 1 mill at the very least he will be a pariah in the financial world,as if he isn't already

[buzzbomb1958]

What will he do now? (I'm surprised the record printed this)

They are saying he could be taken to court and he may have to lodge the 11mill to cover all eventualities also he may have to pay a financial services company anything from1/2 mil to 1 mill at the very least he will be a pariah in the financial world,as if he isn't already

[Hagar the Horrible]

There is no way UEFA can sit back and allow this to continue,  THE GFA will tow the party line as always,  in practice nobody should risk doing any business with them until this is resolved, from facepainters upwards?  How can they be allowed to play in Europe when the owner/director of the club/holding company is breaking every finacial ruling.  If this was Romanov it would be sensationalistic news by the whole SMSM

[hughesie27]

If this was Romanov it would be sensationalistic news by the whole SMSM

Yep.

[Jeff]

Is there any chance someone could explain this development to someone who hasnt got a clue about business? What did King need to do yesterday and why? What will be the repurcussions?

[Hagar the Horrible]

Is there any chance someone could explain this development to someone who hasnt got a clue about business? What did King need to do yesterday and why? What will be the repurcussions?

Because he acted as part of a concert party which in turn as a combined share voting rights issue, he and his party have taken their share issue to over 29.9%  by law when you do this you must offer every other shareholder the opertunity to sell  your shares at that price they paid for their shares,  you dont have to sell, but if you do then they have to buy potentially ending up owning 100% of all shares, however once you get beyond 91% then you can take the last 9% for free, if they chose not to sell (thats the risk)  King has acted with others to go beyond the 29.9% threshold and as such they have acted improperly, they must now offer all remaining shareholders at their agreed price 20p per share, by yesterday.  gues what.....?  nada, now King might not care about this as he lives in SA, but the others in the concert party might not like being banned as a director.   I am sure the authoroties might take their time but they are not toothless

[...a bit disco]

Chris McLaughlin?Verified account @BBCchrismclaug  5m5 minutes ago

More

Takeover Appeals Board say they will take #Rangers chairman Dave King to court after he refused to make offer for rest of club's shares.

[jambovambo]

Boom !

[Mikey1874]

Well

 

Capitalism or at the financial/ legal side implementing the rules

 

Which is what they do

[...a bit disco]

Chris McLaughlin?Verified account @BBCchrismclaug  8m8 minutes ago

More

Dave King also faces the prospect of 'financial cold shouldering' meaning no city investors or institutions can deal with him. #Rangers

[...a bit disco]

[Mikey1874]

So Dave King just engaging in a delaying tactic

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

So Dave King just engaging in a delaying tactic

Because he doesn't have the money to make the offer.

[buzzbomb1958]

Because he doesn't have the money to make the offer.

As I said earlier he will need to post 11 mill for all eventualities' and he has to pay a financial company anything from 1/2 mill to 1mill to use their service's,everyone knows he has not got that that money,this could be the final nail in the coffin for him

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Because he doesn't have the money to make the offer.

 

A fact which should by now be dawning on the Rangers fans, you would have thought, however it's not the first time they've been duped and blindly follow followed a lying shyster.

[John Findlay]

So the children's inheritance went to the children afterall.

[DETTY29]

I think we should all came our jets a little.

 

As Richard Wilson told us all back in March, the TAP announcement is no biggie.  No powers and so on.

 

Now Richard, which expert within BBC Scotland did you talk seek counsel from?  Business / Economy Editor, Douglas Fraser?  Of course not, he might be a Rangers hater.

 

Nah, straight on to the phone to Level5.

Edited April 13, 2017 by DETTY29

[skinnybob72]

If King was to sell his shares would that be the end of the 'concert party' or would the onus to offer to buy the other shares fall to the other members of the said party?

[The Gasman]

Best directed at the gullible hordes who'll buy S.T's from him to pay for his corrupt business practices. [emoji4]

 

Let the cold shouldering begin. [emoji1]

Where that could get very very messy, is that they may now struggle to get a finance company like Zebra to work with them on S/T sales.

 

Can't see too many fans being willing to pay up front, in full, for their Season Tickets....

[Don Dan]

I wonder if King is waiting on the Season Ticket money to start rolling in so he can use that to help bank roll his bid.

[Shrekeo]

Close the thread! There's nothing to see here!!

[Hagar the Horrible]

The ?30m war chest, as of which ?18m has already gone , wont now even cover this as the ?30m did not come from King but soft loans from other directors.  King might not have 20p let alone have to ring fence ?14m just in case there is a full 100% take up?  Zombieco should be deducted points for their financial misconduct.   This will get messy, but interesting how the GFA act, and more so the Weegia?  but should all our clubs not take action to ensure this is not allowed to happen to any other club?  This protects Rangers as well as an entity from rouge owners. Zombieco need more protection from themselves, but i ask this od the SFA/SPFL.  how can the FPP test still be valid?  He is in clear breach of the Companies act?  I think he is buying time to either:

1. Challenge this ruling, that he is not a concert party?  but why not appeal? why just ignore?

2. He tried and failed so far to raise the capital?

3. He is trying to punt his shares?

 

 

I have got to ask?  what are the other members in the concert party saying to this?  you would like to think the media would ask a probing question as lets face it they all face sanctions????

[Hagar the Horrible]

I am suprised MA has not taken Glib to court just to get an offer for his shares? regardless if he takes up the offer, just to put more pressure on King and to prove a point?

 

Another thing the soft loans were suplied by the so called concert party were they not?  if they cannot raise the money for the share offer, they might need to call in the loans as they now cannot convert the equity to shares??????  or how about this?  ..... write off the loans as a gift????///   aye right!!!!!!

[Hagar the Horrible]

He can't challenge the ruling, it's final.

So what is his rationale?  no money/raise money for the offer?  or tying to get out of Dodge? this just wont go away?

[doctor jambo]

That's any future share offering goosed,

[Hagar the Horrible]

That's any future share offering goosed,

Actually yes, just looked into sanctions and cold-shouldering might look like "its ma baw"  but no other football club, agent or facepainter would be able to transact any business with them,  the bank may have to remove their business, and the certianty is they cannot perform any share transactions at all. Even Level 5 if they are a company cannot act on behalf of King

[jambovambo]

The ?30m war chest, as of which ?18m has already gone , wont now even cover this as the ?30m did not come from King but soft loans from other directors. King might not have 20p let alone have to ring fence ?14m just in case there is a full 100% take up? Zombieco should be deducted points for their financial misconduct. This will get messy, but interesting how the GFA act, and more so the Weegia? but should all our clubs not take action to ensure this is not allowed to happen to any other club? This protects Rangers as well as an entity from rouge owners. Zombieco need more protection from themselves, but i ask this od the SFA/SPFL. how can the FPP test still be valid? He is in clear breach of the Companies act? I think he is buying time to either:

1. Challenge this ruling, that he is not a concert party? but why not appeal? why just ignore?

2. He tried and failed so far to raise the capital?

3. He is trying to punt his shares?

 

 

I have got to ask? what are the other members in the concert party saying to this? you would like to think the media would ask a probing question as lets face it they all face sanctions????

These pesky rouge owners, eh ?

 

 

 

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/quentin-crisp-4.jpg

[Hagar the Horrible]

These pesky rouge owners, eh ?

 

 

 

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/quentin-crisp-4.jpg

Having trouble coming to terms are we?

[Meadows]

Right, so how many court cases are Rangers (or whatever derivative of Rangers) involved in, if you now include this latest development on King?

Off the top of my head ;

The ongoing Mike Ashley retail battle.

The resignation / sacking of Warburton , Weir .

The takeover panel .

 

Probably a few more I've missed.

[tweegy]

Off the top of my head ;

The ongoing Mike Ashley retail battle.

The resignation / sacking of Warburton , Weir .

The takeover panel .

 

Probably a few more I've missed.

Final appeal on ebt case still to be revealed.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

Pardon me if I have missed it: but anyone know how much it would cost for King to buy all the shares at 20p?

[Lovecraft]

Pardon me if I have missed it: but anyone know how much it would cost for King to buy all the shares at 20p?

 

Think it was quoted at ?14 Million.

[Mikey1874]

Dave needs to talk to another fine upstanding owner Silvio Berlusconi.

 

About escape routes.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

Think it was quoted at ?14 Million.

 

Thanks.  You may have noticed I did not ask how much it would cost King to buy the shares.  That is probably too silly a question.  He would probably use somebody else's money.

[Unknown user]

I am suprised MA has not taken Glib to court just to get an offer for his shares? regardless if he takes up the offer, just to put more pressure on King and to prove a point?

 

Another thing the soft loans were suplied by the so called concert party were they not? if they cannot raise the money for the share offer, they might need to call in the loans as they now cannot convert the equity to shares?????? or how about this? ..... write off the loans as a gift????/// aye right!!!!!!

That raises an interesting point - rangers are OK rules wise because the loans they've received are expected to be converted to equity.

Now that that can't happen, they wouldn't satisfy the necessary FFP rules as I understand it.

So what now?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Thanks.  You may have noticed I did not ask how much it would cost King to buy the shares.  That is probably too silly a question.  He would probably use somebody else's money.

 

I think everyone has wised up on that score, King is now way too toxic for anybody to trust him with their money anymore, I even think his own concert party can't stand him nor trusts him any longer either, which means his time at the helm of Rangers is drawing to a close.

 

Judge Brian Southwood was IMO an excellent judge of character, when he called King 'A glib and shameless lair'.

More and more people are seeing him for what he is.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Jambo-Jimbo

[buzzbomb1958]

Looks like all the soft loans are money the lenders will never see again if they cannot be converted,I've no sympathy for any of them they knew King was a crook so more fool them,mind you they will probably use the mugs season ticket money to pay themselves back leaving another shortfall next season

[Alva-Jambo]

The Huns are havin a party

The huns are havin a party

A con-cert party

a con-cert party

na na na na..

eleven mijllion quid

eleven million quid.

[jambosdad]

No mate, I was with ltsb, the whole sector was at it

As a former Bank Manager I was astounded at some of the lending made by banks and building societies.

?120k mortgage, 100% loan and borrower earning ?16k.

No doubt bonuses were a reason for some of the crap lending. Usually takes a few years for things to go wrong and the bonus is spent

and the lender moved on.