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The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.


Sergio Garcia

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...a bit disco
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 "Frankly, outside Scotland the SPL has no market."

 

Roger Mitchell 2009 following the collapse of his Setanta deal.

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Folk on about stripping titles. 

 

If Romanov was shown to have been at it with how he employed, say Miko, should we lose the 2006 cup win? If you start looking at the 'morality of actors' would Romanov's time at the helm be immoral? Certainly been argued that it was by Hibs fans, but if you start saying that Rangers were immoral and should therefore have titled stripped, then an extension of that argument would be possible to make to include hearts in that. Look at 2012 when we were having financial issues. Would clearly be an extension of the argument that rangers by not paying tax gained an advantage and then titles should be stripped, to say that we gained an advantage and our cup win should be stripped. It's not an argument I agree with, but it is there to be made. How can people not see that? 

 

It's a very odd mindset - supporting trolls like Darren O'Dea and getting behind the idea of Celtic lobbying for titles to be stripped.

 

Let's put this one to bed. What Vlad did with the likes of Bednar and Miko is not anything like what Rangers did. Vlad took advantage of Hearts being part of an international group of companies to minimise tax by paying it in Lithuania rather than UK. This isn't the same as being based in the UK and evading paying UK Income tax. When Amazon pay EU tax on all EU sales at lower rate in Luxembourg it it 100% legal. It is called tax avoidance and is sensible and above board even if the morality can be questionable. What Rangers did was pay players but evade tax by not passing on the tax that they as employer were responsible for collecting and remitting to HMRC. Vlad paid the necessary taxes to Lithuanian and UK authorities until his empire collapsed and then the administrators stepped in and negotiated a sale of Hearts. Hearts 100% legal.Rangers (at least for now and unless they win on appeal) 100% illegal
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'My God, Rangers have suffered. The cruel event of 2012 for those Rangers fans who held up the banner ? ?History is our heartbeat, No to liquidation? ? cannot be underestimated. There is an argument that further punishment of the club is futile and even vindictive.'

:lol:

Aye, nice one Spiersy.

 

I liked the line about some believe it's just a joyride for those that detest Rangers.

 

 

Hey, Speirsey, give us some credit!

 

Dear, oh, dear.

 

To be fair, I think he's having some fun, getting many bites and taking an angle that doesn't actually mean discussing the facts that are not so easily manipulated.

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It's gonna be interesting to find out why MA asked for the judicial review. What does he stand to gain from it ? Is he bringing it just to cause trouble for King . Or is there something much more worrying for King (and the SFA) - that the SFA circumvented due process (re the post I nicked from TSFM).

 

Ashley asked for the judicial rule for 2 reasons 1) to make the sfa look like a corrupt bunch of yes men(which they are) who will do anything for team wearing blue who play at ibrokes and 2) to embarrass the glib and shameless liar.

 

From what ive seen about the king fit and proper decision, regan did not convene the full professional game board and instead went with a truncated board which was packed with his cronies, king was passed by 5 votes to 2, it has been assumed that the 2 against were petrie and lawell, the 5 for's included campbell ogilvie!!!

 

The SFA will have the whole process aired in court, should be interesting as they seem to have not followed their own rules during the process.

 

Once again, Speirs is out with the emotive language, into overdrive. Reads like he has hit the bottle. Dressing up the debate how he wants it to be seen by those looking in. Fans just want Rangers dealt with as if they were any club in Scotland, no different from East Stirling or Aberdeen. Without fear or favour.

 

That whole piece could be termed irresponsible in the extreme .

 

Once again spiers shows himself up as a complete fud and rangers apologist, the smsm has gone into overdrive to try and bury this, anyone who says that titles should be stripped is given very little(if any coverage) and basically made to look like a bitter idiot, whilst anyone who say's "move along nothing to see here" is given acres of coverage and air time.

 

No wonder newspapers are dying. Why don't they go and ask murray about his ebt or souness or dodds or mcleish or ferguson, go and do some journalism, this is a huge story but they wont actually investigate.

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I find this thread distasteful like a menu with lemons and limes with nothing to add.Pure self gratifying bitterness that exists in an entity unto itself .

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Daydream Believer

Let's put this one to bed. What Vlad did with the likes of Bednar and Miko is not anything like what Rangers did. Vlad took advantage of Hearts being part of an international group of companies to minimise tax by paying it in Lithuania rather than UK. This isn't the same as being based in the UK and evading paying UK Income tax. When Amazon pay EU tax on all EU sales at lower rate in Luxembourg it it 100% legal. It is called tax avoidance and is sensible and above board even if the morality can be questionable. What Rangers did was pay players but evade tax by not passing on the tax that they as employer were responsible for collecting and remitting to HMRC. Vlad paid the necessary taxes to Lithuanian and UK authorities until his empire collapsed and then the administrators stepped in and negotiated a sale of Hearts. Hearts 100% legal.Rangers (at least for now and unless they win on appeal) 100% illegal

I'm not convinced that this is the point either (though I confess I am getting quite confused)

 

As I see it - there are UK tax laws, and then there are the football rules. You could break either one without breaking the other, or you could break them both. My understanding was that Vlad (probably) did break the first (tax law) but didn't break the second because there was no issue with registration. If (at that point) you broke the tax laws then you sorted it out with HMRC whether by settlement or through the courts and that's what Hearts did. End of story.

 

What Rangers did was (we now know, pending appeal) break the tax laws, and also because they never declared the full amounts, broke the football rules. LNS investigated the football breach, and decided that since the EBT's were legal no sporting advantage had been gained by the failure in registration.

 

Now we know that the tax laws were broken, the ruling on the sporting breach cannot be correct since it was based on no tax rule break i.e. they did gain an advantage. So while it is all based on the tax case outcome, we should not be concentrating on that in itself, but rather the knock on effect it has on the football rule breach.

 

As I say, it's getting confusing and I think deliberately so from some of the media outlets.

 

That could all be totally wrong BTW, it's just my own understanding of it.

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Footballfirst

Let's put this one to bed. What Vlad did with the likes of Bednar and Miko is not anything like what Rangers did. Vlad took advantage of Hearts being part of an international group of companies to minimise tax by paying it in Lithuania rather than UK. This isn't the same as being based in the UK and evading paying UK Income tax. When Amazon pay EU tax on all EU sales at lower rate in Luxembourg it it 100% legal. It is called tax avoidance and is sensible and above board even if the morality can be questionable. What Rangers did was pay players but evade tax by not passing on the tax that they as employer were responsible for collecting and remitting to HMRC. Vlad paid the necessary taxes to Lithuanian and UK authorities until his empire collapsed and then the administrators stepped in and negotiated a sale of Hearts. Hearts 100% legal.Rangers (at least for now and unless they win on appeal) 100% illegal

 

There is a simpler explanation of what Hearts did. Loan deals frequently have the owning club still paying a proportion of the players wages while the receiving club paying the balance.  Rangers themselves are probably using that system right now with their current crop of loanees, as they did last season with the Newcastle five.  Despite the Rangers loans being cross border, as far as HMRC is concerned the full amount of the income both originates and  the full amount of tax due is paid in the single jurisdiction that is the UK, so there is no problem with that arrangement. 

 

Hearts attempted an arrangement where the bulk of the wages were paid in Lithuania and a smaller portion in the UK. I don't know the specifics, but I suspect that Hearts also provided much of the funding of the wages at the Kaunas end. However HMRC called foul and raised an assessment for the full amount of the players wages at UK tax rates as the players were both resident and employed in the UK.  Hearts eventually reached a settlement with HMRC, a process that is neither illegal nor unusual for many businesses.

 

It is my understanding the the arrangement came to light when a "loan" player was seeking a mortgage in the UK, but his payslip showed a relatively small income.  The player insisted that he received much more, but that it was paid overseas.    

Edited by Footballfirst
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I find this thread distasteful like a menu with lemons and limes with nothing to add.Pure self gratifying bitterness that exists in an entity unto itself .

:rofl:
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...a bit disco

I find this thread distasteful like a menu with lemons and limes with nothing to add.Pure self gratifying bitterness that exists in an entity unto itself .

 

Not%20Bitter2.png

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I find this thread distasteful like a menu with lemons and limes with nothing to add.Pure self gratifying bitterness that exists in an entity unto itself .

 

:pleasing:

 

its quite good fun when one of "them" show up with nothing to add

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Project fear & desperation by the msm, after Clyde SSB's refusal to take calls about the Ebt scandal we now have this from the telegraph & R.Forsyth. [emoji1]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/te

ams/rangers/11990181/SPL-clubs-fear-they-will-be-hurt-financially-themselves-if-Rangers-stripped-of-titles.html?x

 

ee41618cb40a024c98e9b0d538d0bae3.jpg

 

 

 

 

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That is utterly hilarious! I honestly can't believe that's a real article. :rofl:

 

Actually, which clubs would be due bonus payments anyway, other than Sellik? Bearing in mind they couldn't award cups to any other side, because each side beaten in any round by RFC could lay claim to that trophy. What complete and utter horseshite!

 

:rofl:

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Project fear & desperation by the msm, after Clyde SSB's refusal to take calls about the Ebt scandal we now have this from the telegraph & R.Forsyth. [emoji1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/11990181/SPL-clubs-fear-they-will-be-hurt-financially-themselves-if-Rangers-stripped-of-titles.html?xee41618cb40a024c98e9b0d538d0bae3.jpg

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Jesus. Ok Roddy the proddy we believe you.
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I find this thread distasteful like a menu with lemons and limes with nothing to add.Pure self gratifying bitterness that exists in an entity unto itself .

Sounds like you are talking about the Sevco support and not this thread.

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Hackney Hearts

Wow. Those anonymous club chairmen quotes in the Telegraph - I simply don't believe them. They just sound like the words of a desperate Rangers fan. Mind you, that's the thing about them being anonymous, I suppose they could be from any club in any SPFL league, I don't think he specifies Premiership. Plenty of Rangers fans knocking around who are chairmen of lower league clubs, I guess (apart from Rangers themselves, obviously).

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I find this thread distasteful like a menu with lemons and limes with nothing to add.Pure self gratifying bitterness that exists in an entity unto itself .

Distasteful, why? I trust you would prefer oranges...

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Yep, poor Roddy. He's never gotten over losing his debenture seat at ibroke tbh. [emoji1]

 

33bd0f1f594f6e2b50940e2966fa235e.jpg

 

They actually tweeted [emoji651]? then deleted & replaced it with [emoji652]?..

 

2a4e907fc17fa2030087ab2274ddcc9e.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

:rofl: :rofl:

 

It's so far past clutching at straws I'm not even sure if there's a phrase for it. Utter desperation and delusion.

 

:rofl:

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i was up til now, thinking that for the "doping years" we could just go with the asterix idea that had been discussed earlier in the thread.  now however, the lack of contrition and the utte pish coming from the west, i say now, strip the titles, seriously...just remove their titles.  scratch them off the cups and be done with it.  i hope to fkc mike ashley destroys them now.   screw them, screw their fans, even the nice ones, just do it 

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oh, and i'm not bitter

 

 

i'm just sick and tired of the "were ra same club, we've goat ra titles an at naw'' type nonsense

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Typical of this place that actually looking out for hearts' interest long term can be described as having rangers glasses. 

 

All PHM know that Hearts long term interests can best be served by ensuring that Sevco/Rangers are hammered back to the primordeal soup that they crawled out of by applying the appropriate, fair and just penalties that any other team has or would face under similar circumstances for cheating on a wholesale scale.  Without fear or favour aye.

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Exactly.

 

The moral issue is a side show.

 

We are in double jepeordy mode.

 

Should LNS be full and final or was he signficantly misled to re-open.

Agree that is the issue but could he have done anything else ?

 

LNS was never asked  to rule about the legality of the EBT's in Government/Tax law and it was not in his remit to look at that... He did of course find out about the side letters etc and ruled on that under 'football regulations' but I don't think we can blame anything on him re EBT'S legality as he was not the one who would decide rights and wrongs of a tax situation.

 

It then boils down to opinion re 'sporting advantage' gained (under the terms of his remit and investigation at the time) and he ruled on that at that time........given he knew about them would his decision have been any different ?  If only we could ask him.

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Seymour M Hersh

So again its our fault the hatred is all bitterness and poor Rangers havent they suffered enough.

 

Absolute garbage if people had done their jobs in the initial investigation this wouldnt be the outcome.

 

I know what a load of garbage Brittany wrote there. 

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Do people not remember how insufferable rangers fans where? ******* right Im bitter.

rangers fans ARE, **** the titles, just throw them out the league as they shoulda been at the start when they died, you cant buy history.

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rangers fans ARE, **** the titles, just throw them out the league as they shoulda been at the start when they died, you cant buy history.

Aye there still a pain in the dick, but jesus christ, when they where "winning" these cups and titles they where so much worse. There big red bloated bigot pusses with there chests aw puffed oot, high on there superiority. The wins, they amount of money they where spending, the players the had. All of it gave them power and then a few years down the line we find out they cheated to get it all. I will do everything i can to lord it over they ***** they way they did everyone else. ****in bitter to the core about it me.

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LNS was a sham, Bryson was a sham, Regan and Donkeycaster refused to apply the rules to sevco, same club crap, the 5 way agreement, the glib and shameless liar is passed fit and proper by an SFA committee packed with regans cronies.

 

The SFA and the SPFL(SPL/SFL as was) have consistently refused to apply their own rules to give rangers/sevco an advantage and have bent over backwards to accommodate anything that sevco want, ashley is now turning the screw, if there is a judicial review of fit and proper, they will be shown up as a bunch of corrupt shysters. 

 

There is a perfect storm of crap coming, it started with the law lords ruling last wee, continues today with old big hands hearing over his legal fees, king in court for contempt, the trials over the asset purchase, the application for a judicial review.

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Do people not remember how insufferable rangers fans where? ******* right Im bitter.

They were a nightmare - but I'm not bitter.

 

I don't see why people are all bitter when it's clear that Rangers cheated society out of millions for their own benefit. It's a case of seeking remorse and a recognition that it was wrong to have done that IMO that drives opinions.

 

This "it's turned bitter" line being peddled has ramped up recently and it is just another attempt to skew the views of fans into something twisted and petty. There are some exceptions though like Feeno declaring his position in his post above.

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LNS was never asked to rule about the legality of the EBT's in Government/Tax law and it was not in his remit to look at that... He did of course find out about the side letters etc and ruled on that under 'football regulations' but I don't think we can blame anything on him re EBT'S legality as he was not the one who would decide rights and wrongs of a tax situation.

 

While it wasn't in his remit to look at it, he (rightly) punted on the issue because the scheme had been ruled legal at the time and he came right out and said that no illegality means no basis to analyse the issue of sporting advantage:

 

"[T]he SPL accepted that decision (deeming the EBT scheme legal) as it stood, without regard to any possible appeal by HMRC.  Accordingly we proceed on the basis that the EBT arrangements were lawful.  Although it is clear to us from Mr Odam's evidence that Oldco?s failure to disclose the side-letters to the SPL and the SFA was at least partly motivated by a wish not to risk prejudicing the tax advantages of the EBT scheme, we are unable to reach the conclusion that this led to any competitive advantage.  We therefore proceed on the basis that the breach of the rules relating to disclosure did not give rise to any sporting advantage, direct or indirect. We do not therefore propose to consider those sanctions which are of a sporting nature."  SPLL Decision, Lord Nimmo Smith at 31. (emphasis added)

 

He could have, and as a lawyer I would argue should have, come right out and said the following: "Should the EBT scheme Oldco set up be deemed illegal on appeal, a reexamination of the facts would be necessary to determine whether a sporting advantage had been gained.  That analysis is outside our scope as things now stand."  It's easy for us to jump to the immediate conclusion that there was a sporting advantage, but he didn't consider it in his report because it wasn't the reality then.  However, the correct move now would be to look at it with the set of facts we have now--namely, that it was illegal--and see what benefits, both quantitative and qualitative, Rangers might have gained.

Edited by Justin Z
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That Forsyth article is beyond parody. For a start I've never heard anyone saying the titles should be reassigned, just removed. Secondly how thick does he think the rest of us are? Thirdly his pain and panic are delicious to me.

Edited by Amjam
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This is all a bit Sergey, guys. 

 

Do people honestly want them stripped of their titles? What good would that achieve other than satisfying a few bitter supporters of other clubs.

 

The game in Scotland is a big enough joke without all this shite.

 

Move on.  

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This is all a bit Sergey, guys. 

 

Do people honestly want them stripped of their titles? What good would that achieve other than satisfying a few bitter supporters of other clubs.

 

The game in Scotland is a big enough joke without all this shite.

 

Move on.  

 

It would be a bigger joke, in fact the game in Scotland would be pointless, if you could cheat with impunity. There has to be consequences, or what's the point?

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Glamorgan Jambo

I'm not in general a conspiracy theorist but after reading the nonsense from Forsyth, the witterings of the 'from nowhere' Roger Mitchell, and the general tone of the media someone is applying a lot of pressure.

 

Just what exactly do Rangers have to have done before they have to get a sporting sanction? That's the question.

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This is all a bit Sergey, guys.

 

Do people honestly want them stripped of their titles? What good would that achieve other than satisfying a few bitter supporters of other clubs.

 

The game in Scotland is a big enough joke without all this shite.

 

Move on.

Not fussed about their "cheated" titles being stripped TBH.

I just want to see them having to apply to get into the Junior league set up.

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This is all a bit Sergey, guys.

 

Do people honestly want them stripped of their titles? What good would that achieve other than satisfying a few bitter supporters of other clubs.

 

The game in Scotland is a big enough joke without all this shite.

 

Move on.

And that is the very reason Rangers and Murray did what they did and potentially with collusion from the governing bodies.
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This is all a bit Sergey, guys. 

 

Do people honestly want them stripped of their titles? What good would that achieve other than satisfying a few bitter supporters of other clubs.

 

The game in Scotland is a big enough joke without all this shite.

 

Move on.

 

 

Absolutely I do - those manky, cheating scumbags have been lording it even in the face of the indisputable facts that they cheated. They seem to think that because "they ra peepul" that this means they can't be punished! The fact that the football authorities here bend over backwards to ensure the best interests of Rangers are catered for is what makes Scottish football a dsgrace.

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This is all a bit Sergey, guys.

 

Do people honestly want them stripped of their titles? What good would that achieve other than satisfying a few bitter supporters of other clubs.

 

The game in Scotland is a big enough joke without all this shite.

 

Move on.

It's only a bit Sergey if the posters on here spend 10 years of their life trying to bring down the new Rangers as well as having the titles of Oldco removed.

 

As far as i see it's just people commenting on the situation. Surely no-one on here is sad enough to actually go further than that?

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Footballfirst

More court action in the pipeline?

 

http://www.thenational.scot/sport/football-mike-ashley-takes-sfa-to-court-over-dave-king-decision.9914

 

 


In a separate development, The National understands Ashley is also considering fighting a resolution to the Rangers AGM on November 27 with information which a source close to the Sports Direct tycoon said was ?dynamite.?

 

The AGM will debate a resolution from the current board to stop Ashley, who owns almost nine per cent of Rangers, from having any say in the running of the club.

 

The source said: ?From what I have heard, Mike is determined to have his say on this resolution as the third-biggest shareholder in the club.?

 

The ?information? is thought to relate to Sports Direct being owed ?5 million by Rangers.

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